The Release w/Brian Manzella & Michael Jacobs

[magicmarker]

I always wondered why Hogan said that he wished he had three right hands, considering his miss was a hook. The clubhead should be passing the hands sooner (than I previously thought) and I think I'm understanding how literally he may have meant it, and why he said three right hands and not three right arms, for handling the release maybe?

 

[Martee]

Brian and Michael, this is really interesting stuff. Not sure I grasp all of it, between this thread and few others along with the videos there is a lot of information.

I am still trying understand if I am a handle dragger but the 'Up and In', the 'Coupling Point' makes perfect sense. Cancel the handle dragger just went back over page 110 post 1099 BM's video, will ignore other comments on handle dragging, this is rather quite clear, even for me.

Brain you wrote "WE ARE SAYING THAT EVERY SCIENTIFIC PAPER WE HAVE READ AND EVERY SCIENTIST WE HAVE ASKED TELLS YOU DO TO DO BOTH AND DO THEM AT PRECISE TIMES ON AN OFF".

My question is this approach you are developing going to be more time dependent requiring the golfer interaction? I was leaning toward you approach being or requiring less golfer manipulation or forcing (i.e. holding the frozen right wrist, etc). The 'Flick' (think that is what you are calling it for now) seems to be opposite that of a 'Flip' or am I totally lost?

Can't wait for the book...

PS..Tks for the post Hogan swing comments.

 

[Kamloops]

I'm trying to equate this release with principles expressed in some of the other videos Brian has produced. I am a big fan of the "Never Hook Again" video. Is the release in this thread similar to the "gather up the marbles" idea?

 

[dschultz6072]

Found this video and thought it was pretty funny, especially when you really listen at 0:32. You hear a familiar concept being repeated a few times here as well.

 

[gators78]

I joined specifically after reading all the information in this thread...great stuff, but can we please have an instructional video?

 

[Jared Willerson]

The video is coming guys. Brian and Mike are extremely busy right now.

 

[scorekeeper]

From another website...

Two TGM GSEDs now claim that the science and many of concepts of TGM are no longer valid in light of their groundbreaking research!

They are about to release the results of this research, based on a paper by Miura, which uses a concept called "parametric acceleration". To summarize, the golfer from the top of the backswing, pushes his hands out wide without worrying about losing wristcock. When the golfer's hands get near impact, the handle of the club is pulled upward and inward, which apparently provides supersonic clubhead velocity and prevents a forward leaning shaft at impact, which is now, according to their research, no longer valid. He wants the shaft vertical at impact. His research also has shown that the concept of lag is wrong and something you don't want in a good swing. They also add in the thread, that you don't want a full pivot on the downswing, calling it "crazy", apparently calling for a slowing or breaking of the turning shoulders at some point. No more extending through impact to 'both arms straight', but rather a bent left elbow pulling up and in.

I've been trying to envisage a way to execute this new cutting edge science, and think I've got a good swing key. When your hands get near their low point, pretend that you suddenly realize your fly is open, and as your hands go by, envision grabbing the zipper with your left pinky finger and pulling upward. This one swing key should do the trick, and you could call it the "Open Fly" swing pattern.

A video preview is given on the Manzella.com site under the thread, "The release - w/ Mike Jacobs and Manzella videos". They claim that TGM concepts such as lag, plane line, rhythm, and hands ahead at impact are no longer valid in view of their blockbusting research.

 

[Brian Manzella]

My question is this approach you are developing going to be more time dependent requiring the golfer interaction? I was leaning toward you approach being or requiring less golfer manipulation or forcing (i.e. holding the frozen right wrist, etc). The 'Flick' (think that is what you are calling it for now) seems to be opposite that of a 'Flip' or am I totally lost?

A flip is the PREMATURE straightening of the right wrist that RESULTS in a backward leaning shaft at impact.

A "flick" is the DELIBERATE straightening of the right wrist that RESULTS in a perfectly lined-up club at impact, increase speed, and decreased angle of attack. It also REQUIRES less around-ward pivoting.

Thanks for the kind words Marty!

I'm trying to equate this release with principles expressed in some of the other videos Brian has produced. I am a big fan of the "Never Hook Again" video. Is the release in this thread similar to the "gather up the marbles" idea?

"Gathering up the marbles" is a clubface toward the sky-type move. The "Coupling Point Release" is a face to the plane-type move.

Found this video and thought it was pretty funny, especially when you really listen at 0:32. You hear a familiar concept being repeated a few times here as well.

Great swing.

Look Count Yogi's swing up.....a'int no joke.

When reading some comments I simply see a complete lack of understanding what the whole thread is about. Noone promotes "flipping" (flipping is an error) here. All misunderstanding is because TGM sect called any action of natural reaction of the human wrist joints as "fllipping" and, hence, force poor golfers to drag the handle to the ridiculous level.
Once and for all - if there is no "flipping" before contact, it is no flipping at all.

Cheers

P.S. There were no problems if golf instruction used e.g. Cotton terms until now. End of the story. Geez.

+1

From another website...

Two TGM GSEDs now claim that the science and many of concepts of TGM are no longer valid in light of their groundbreaking research!

We GATHER information. We SEARCH OUT the scientists who did the research. We ASK THEM 100's of questions about our stuff, other folks stuff, and our CONCLUSIONS and SUPPOSITIONS. Many of these scientists are on speed dial. Some of the stuff we are privy to are NOT published, some is.

What is "groundbreaking" about Project 1.68 is us.

We do not have an agenda. This drives our competitors crazy, but the scientists love our open-mindedness.

Why us? Why hasn't someone else put 2+2 together yet, but we are and we will??

Well, as a group, our team Wonderlic average is pretty good. I don't mean this in a bragging sort of way, but smart guys attract smart guys.

As a group we are all really good teachers and a couple of us are better than that.

We have some really good players—past and present.

And we have PASSION.

We have made a lot of folks really nervous.

They are about to release the results of this research, based on a paper by Miura, which uses a concept called "parametric acceleration".

Geez....

We like Muira's work, but he is not on speed dial. Nesbit, Neal, Zick, Maffai, etc. are. Zick coined "Coupling Point."

We would mention everyone's name every 5 minutes, but we don't want some internet loon bother these folks.

To summarize....He wants the shaft vertical at impact.

Actually, we want PGA TOUR AVERAGE dynamic loft and angle of attack numbers. That requires some forward lean. Vertical is fine for a mid-capper.

His research also has shown that the concept of lag is wrong and something you don't want in a good swing.

Yup.

If you ACTUALLY do it the way anyone says you should, including some research by "experts" on the "concept," it would be a very poor result.

They also add in the thread, that you don't want a full pivot on the downswing, calling it "crazy", apparently calling for a slowing or breaking of the turning shoulders at some point.

75% of all the WORK that the body does on the downswing DOES NOT GO INTO CLUBHEAD SPEED.

So why would you PIVPOT LIKE CRAZY?

Plus, you want all force going away from the ball toward the golfer near and at imapct. If you unwind yoo much, too soon, good luck with that.

Plus, if your left arm and right wrist do more, the club gets to the ball sooner.

Like Nick-Loss.

No more extending through impact to 'both arms straight', but rather a bent left elbow pulling up and in.

Actually, that's not really spot on.

This is: DON'T THRUST DOWN PLANE AFTER LOW POINT. DPN'T THRUST DOWN PLANE AT IMPACT.

GO NORMAL!!!!!!!
And....bend the left elbow to move the coupling point up is not how we would teach it, but it would work, and is present in Westwood's swing, was obvious in Jerry Pate's, and was a tenet of Bill Melhorn.

I've been trying to envisage a way to execute this new cutting edge science, and think I've got a good swing key. When your hands get near their low point, pretend that you suddenly realize your fly is open, and as your hands go by, envision grabbing the zipper with your left pinky finger and pulling upward. This one swing key should do the trick, and you could call it the "Open Fly" swing pattern.

Go ahead a drag that handle. Remember to do that cross-line hit while you are at it. Something like force across the shaft the whole downswing......

They claim that TGM concepts such as lag, plane line, rhythm, and hands ahead at impact are no longer valid in view of their blockbusting research.

Nothing wrong with a plane line right at the target. Just prepare for a draw, and make sure the face is NOT square at separation. By the way, the ball gets all of its programming before then.

Rhythm as taught—as wrong as possible.

Hands ahead? GREAT!!! If the force is Normal and the angle of attack is not too downward.

Isn't all of this fun???

 

[jeffy]

When reading some comments I simply see a complete lack of understanding what the whole thread is about. Noone promotes "flipping" (flipping is an error) here. All misunderstanding is because TGM sect called any action of natural reaction of the human wrist joints as "fllipping" and, hence, force poor golfers to drag the handle to the ridiculous level.
Once and for all - if there is no "flipping" before contact, it is no flipping at all.

Cheers

P.S. There were no problems if golf instruction used e.g. Cotton terms until now. End of the story. Geez.

OK, so players like Westwood, Oosthuizen, Kaymer, Chad Campbell, Goosen, and Brian Gay who flip before impact: that is an "error"? Sign me up.

Louis Oosthuizen

 

[jeffy]

A flip is the PREMATURE straightening of the right wrist that RESULTS in a backward leaning shaft at impact.

Not if you slide the upper body forward and "cover the ball" as the King of the Flip advocates.

 

[jeffy]

I always wondered why Hogan said that he wished he had three right hands, considering his miss was a hook. The clubhead should be passing the hands sooner (than I previously thought) and I think I'm understanding how literally he may have meant it, and why he said three right hands and not three right arms, for handling the release maybe?

A hook wasn't his miss after the accident. In fact, his wooden clubs were built at least 2* shut, according to Tom Wishon who inspected them and discussed the specs with Hogan's clubmaker, Gene Sheely.

 

[spktho]

Not if you slide the upper body forward and "cover the ball" as the King of the Flip advocates.

Might that not allow a forward leaning shaft? You may have to slide a foot or more with some of the flippers I've seen. In your previous post you cited Westwood, Kymer, et. al., as flipping, yet they all show forward leaning shafts at impact and are all obviously very accomplished players. I would not call their releases flips as their release must be well timed with some forward lean in the shaft or they would not be as accomplished as they are.

 

[Mike O]

Flip

Not if you slide the upper body forward and "cover the ball" as the King of the Flip advocates.

Jeffy,
I'm not following you at all - that's not a good thing or bad thing - just not sure where you are coming from in regards to the definition of flip. I can clearly see what Brian and Dariuz are talking about - For purposes of this discussion I'm going to start with an even more basic definition and say a flip is any iron shot hit off the ground with a backward leaning grip (that rubber thing that you hang on to ) - per that definition I would definitely say that Lee Westwood is not flipping. Now how do you define a flip in the Lee Westwood sequence where there is a forward leaning shaft at impact? I'm just concerned that Dariuz may cut his wrists if we don't get this flushed out soon

 

[Richard the Nerd]

from the standpoint of how the club is built the sweet spot IS BUILT BEHIND THE HANDLE....so a "lagging condition" seems to me to be present even when the shaft is VERTICAL.....so what many times looks flippy...AIN'T......so could it be that a flip is an impact condtion based on where the sweet spot is in relation to the grip rather than a condition of lean...to me vertical is still lean to an extent if the club is moving dynamically down.

 

[Brian Manzella]

from the standpoint of how the club is built the sweet spot IS BUILT BEHIND THE HANDLE....so a "lagging condition" seems to me to be present even when the shaft is VERTICAL.....so what many times looks flippy...AIN'T......so could it be that a flip is an impact condtion based on where the sweet spot is in relation to the grip rather than a condition of lean...to me vertical is still lean to an extent if the club is moving dynamically down.

Richard,

The shaft is in lead (bending forward of it's static condition) at impact on 99%+ of all shots.

Lag was fairy tale.

 

[Richard the Nerd]

Richard,

The shaft is in lead (bending forward of it's static condition) at impact on 99%+ of all shots.

Lag was fairy tale.

Fair enough but would the sweetspot not still be behind the handle? Grip cap or whatever?

 

[Brian Manzella]

Fair enough but would the sweetspot not still be behind the handle? Grip cap or whatever?

Maybe.

BUT YOU AREN'T PUTTING ANY FORCE ON THE SHAFT!!!!! Unless you want to waste some force.

Lag is a fairy tale.



"The clubhead is accelerating on the downswing, during which the clubhead moves in front of the shaft (shaft bowing forward). Because the clubhead is in front of the shaft and the shaft is also bending downward, four characteristics change in the club compared to the address position. First, the clubheads loft is increased. Second, the face angle closes. Third, the lie of the club flattens. Fourth, the length of the club actually shortens because the shaft is bent in basically two directions." —Ralph Maltby

 

[TeeAce]

Fair enough but would the sweetspot not still be behind the handle? Grip cap or whatever?

I think it depends how You see it. The handle can bee much ahead of the ball and still no much forward lean. I know it seems funny to say like that, but there is also other directions than toward the target.

Brian: Is it Ok to post some graphs here from my 3D measurements?

 

[Brian Manzella]

I think it depends how You see it. The handle can bee much ahead of the ball and still no much forward lean. I know it seems funny to say like that, but there is also other directions than toward the target.

Brian: Is it Ok to post some graphs here from my 3D measurements?

Sure.

 

[wulsy]

How can we still be talking about forward lean of a shaft that is so BENT? Lean can only relate to a straight shaft.