When does the flat left wrist stop being flat? (with Manzella Video Answer & BLOG)
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Todd Dugan
New
Holy clubface rotation, Batman! Phil rolls that sucker 180*, on the inclined plane, from early in the downswing to a few feet post-impact. If that clubface isn't rolling much DURING impact, it sure ain't from a lack of trying!
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Michael Finney
New
and check out 4:58 to 5:02
Brian Manzella
Administrator
rogerdodger
New
I am confused. In my lesson with Brian, he had me use twistaway at the beginning of the downswing, and to swing to a wedding ring up configuration at follow thru. I perceive this as a rolling action. Is this discussion based on the premise that the clubface is either open, square or closed at impact and not opening or closing, or in other words in the process of one of those movements? If that is the case, what is the point? I understand the interval of impact is much too fast to consciously control. I try to counter that by finishing wedding ring up. Do I disregard that instruction which has been key? I simply do not understand this thread. Brian, is there a practical application of the premise of this thread?
no one said the clubface doesn't rotate in most golf swings, just not during impact.
birly-shirly
New
EJ - we can argue about the angle at the back of the left hand, but if you look at the shaft when it's in the corner of the screen, it lines up more with the right arm than the left.
That's beside my point though. The rate of closure that I'm interested in isn't the fraction of a degree whilst ball and club are in contact. It's the rate of closure through what might be called the hitting area. I don't know whether you'd want to define that as a foot or a yard either side of the ball, but the idea is that the amount of clubface rotation through that segment of the swing is linked to the demands of timing a good shot.
I don't know whether flat-wristed rollers rotate the clubface more or less than flippers, or even if there's a link between clubface rotation and shotmaking consistency. Both seem like interesting questions to me, but the answers don't seem at all obvious, given the examples we've both traded.
Since, of the 3 guys you raised, Phil, Tiger and Hogan, only one of them has a reputation for accurate and consistent driving, what, in your view, would be the advantages of not flipping? By flipping, I'm talking about pros here, and not some drop-kicking, sod-laying hacker.
Todd Dugan
New
I have listened. And I believe it. Heck, you can SEE it, really. The ball squashing against the clubface for a center impact seems to really "stabilize" the clubface, momentarily. I was just pointing out that Phil exhibits a TON of clubface rotation before and after collision.
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Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
Flattening the left wrist opens and delofts the club. Rolling and bending it closes it.
They're just saying that the time that the club is on the ball during impact is so small, that there isn't enough time for the club to rotate significantly while it's in contact with the ball.
So no, you don't disregard the instruction. This info doesn't change what you were taught to do. It just gives a better understanding of what happens while the club is in contact with the ball.
I think the action of rolling and delofting is more advantageous during iron play.Like Hogan said,it almost guarantees ball contact and then turf.No science involved here,just good old fashioned emperical evidence.
I don't think you will find many pros who flip badly.Their leading wrist aint gonna bend significantly just after impact like a hacker.Rather than duff,they might hit it a bit heavy or a touch thin which you don't want happening when needing a par for your first major.
Both Phil and Tiger are great iron players.They both spray their drivers but are amongst the longest on tour.It's not really fair comparing this generation with the past.It's a bomb and gauge game now and drivers are longer and lighter.Phil is not the type who would drop 15 yards for the sake of accuracy.
I don't think it's bent.It could be flat as picture quality is not good and hard to see.
Sam used a fairly weak left hand grip.This practically forces you to rotate and keep the left wrist flat otherwise it's fore right all day long and Sam was a puller of the ball.
I think the misunderstanding stems from the clubhead passing the hands which can be interpreted as a flip.You can absolutely keep your left wrist flat while the clubhead passes the hands in the follow through.
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Perhaps you should give it another try but this time don't worry about keeping the right wrist bent,release that sucker....and weaken the left hand to stop the pulls.
This may not increase your distance as timing the flip can yield wonderful power but are you catching the ball clean consistently?
Brian Manzella
Administrator
The Flat Left Wrist - by Brian Manzella
My name is Brian Manzella, and I am a former flipper.
No not like the dolphin, or the guys wearing aqua, orange, and white on Sundays.
I bent my left wrist past impact.
But not before.
So was I a flipper?
Yes, becuase I just haphazardly threw the clubhead to be inline with my right arm (what I was trying to do) without knowing what my impact alignments should have been.
But wow, did I hit it good doing that sometimes.
I learned through tens of thousands of little shots, and drills that Ben Doyle gave me to do, and I developed myself, to have the "Flattest Left Wrist" in golf.
But there were flippers who could give me 3 a side.
They had better TrackMan numbers, and TrackMan hadn't been invented yet.
So, how do I, and many other golfers, keep our left wrists flat well past impact, when PingMan5 and most all Math Models have the "left wrist" bending post impact?
Negative Left Wrist Torque.
Period.
Trying to do it has hurt as many good players as trying not to.
It will all be on the next "Confessions of a Former Flipper."
My name is Brian Manzella, and I am a former flipper.
No not like the dolphin, or the guys wearing aqua, orange, and white on Sundays.
I bent my left wrist past impact.
But not before.
So was I a flipper?
Yes, becuase I just haphazardly threw the clubhead to be inline with my right arm (what I was trying to do) without knowing what my impact alignments should have been.
But wow, did I hit it good doing that sometimes.
I learned through tens of thousands of little shots, and drills that Ben Doyle gave me to do, and I developed myself, to have the "Flattest Left Wrist" in golf.
But there were flippers who could give me 3 a side.
They had better TrackMan numbers, and TrackMan hadn't been invented yet.
So, how do I, and many other golfers, keep our left wrists flat well past impact, when PingMan5 and most all Math Models have the "left wrist" bending post impact?
Negative Left Wrist Torque.
Period.
Trying to do it has hurt as many good players as trying not to.
It will all be on the next "Confessions of a Former Flipper."
Good quality video with enough shutter speed to see clear stills without blurring is hard to find from that era.Here is one of the best youtube video of Sam Snead I have found.Another hof player with a weak left hand and judge for yourself whether he bends his left wrist early.Fast forward to 3:48.
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Sorry, but I have to disagree on that one. If the left wrist is in a cupped (bent) position and is moved to flat then the clubface will become more closed and will be delofted.
Cupping/bending opens and increases loft whereas arching closes and delofts, regardless of where in the swing you do it.
Brian Manzella said:
Brian, what do you mean by Negative Left Wrist Torque? That you forceably rotate the left arm/wrist through impact in order to stop the wrist bending and that the bending is a torque induced reaction?
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birly-shirly
New
EJ - fair enough. My original query was whether the flat lead wrist gave any advantage in terms of clubface control. My impression is that you're not really arguing that it does.
As regards controlling lowpoint - I'm no pro so maybe this doesn't count for this debate, but I'm pretty sure that when I catch it fat, it's more often a path issue rather than a flip. I would also guess that on full shots at least, I control wrist bend more consistently than path. Less so on part-shots, I'll admit.
As regards trajectory, this is interesting in terms of what to copy. Both Woods and Mickelson can hit the ball toweringly high. A huge advantage on long approaches, but I can believe that they need to find a way to lower their trajectory on mid and short irons to keep control. I'd guess that most amateurs have a different set of concerns.
Birly,talking about clubface control makes me smile.Even seasoned pros will often have off days,not hit their usual shots and will just dance with the gal they brung that day and accept it.
Not even Woods or Mickelson with all their talent can always hit the shot they want....what hope do we have?
As for Woods and Mickelson hitting towering long irons...I could too if my 2 iron clubhead speed was around 115mph or more.Woods at his peak swung his driver close to 130 so a 115mph 2 iron would be a conservative estimate.
Not even Woods or Mickelson with all their talent can always hit the shot they want....what hope do we have?
As for Woods and Mickelson hitting towering long irons...I could too if my 2 iron clubhead speed was around 115mph or more.Woods at his peak swung his driver close to 130 so a 115mph 2 iron would be a conservative estimate.
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