When does the flat left wrist stop being flat? (with Manzella Video Answer & BLOG)

[wulsy]

Im sorry man but its a fact. Hold the club in front of you toe up. Now bend your left wrist, it adds loft and closes the face. Period. Do the opposite and it delofts it and opens it.

Definitive. Not up for conjecture. Even if you hit shots and make those motions you see that result. Cupping adds loft/closes
and bending and bowing the opposite.

Gonna have to agree with Kevin on this one.. why do people that have wide open faces on the downswing flip it? In order to try to square the face.

Sorry guys but you are definitely wrong. Here's why: People flip in order to get the clubhead more closed/less open by getting the clubhead to overtake the hands, which closes the clubface due to the process of "canting". "Canting" is why if you forward press from the address position the clubhead opens and conversely when you move you hands to the right (backward lean the shaft) the clubhead closes. The reationship between the forward or backward leaning of the clubshaft and the clubface alignment is indisputable.

Where you guys are mixing up two distinctly different factors lies in the fact that when you move the hands to the right in the address position (backward lean) your left hand cups. If you remain in the cupped positon and move the shaft back to its original address angle you will see that the cupping of the left wrist has caused the clubface to open and and increased the loft.
Indisputable, irrefutable und undeniable. Its an open and shut case.

 

[wulsy]

One day, all hooked up to a 12 sensor 6°3D machine, with TrackMan running, I did a little test.

6-iron, normal swing ~86mph

6-iron, bending left wrist massively through the ball but dynamic loft the same ~86mph

6-iron, adding arch from impact to the finish, but dynamic loft the same ~86mph

The negative torque is simply a THROUGH THE BALL "extra" that some have learned.

Brian I assume you are saying that as long as the shaft angle at impact is good (the idea of a geometric flat left wrist) the clubhead speed is not affected by what happens in the left wrist through impact. Speed is however not force (F = ma). A very bent or very arched left wrist at impact reduces swing radius and consequently clubhead mass and so reduces the force into the ball. This would effect distance. Do you have any distances from your little experiment?

 

[greenfree]

Sorry guys but you are definitely wrong. Here's why: People flip in order to get the clubhead more closed/less open by getting the clubhead to overtake the hands, which closes the clubface due to the process of "canting". "Canting" is why if you forward press from the address position the clubhead opens and conversely when you move you hands to the right (backward lean the shaft) the clubhead closes. The reationship between the forward or backward leaning of the clubshaft and the clubface alignment is indisputable.

Where you guys are mixing up two distinctly different factors lies in the fact that when you move the hands to the right in the address position (backward lean) your left hand cups. If you remain in the cupped positon and move the shaft back to its original address angle you will see that the cupping of the left wrist has caused the clubface to open and and increased the loft.
Indisputable, irrefutable und undeniable. Its an open and shut case.

But when you hit the ball with a flip or a bowed wrist condition the shaft isn't at the original address angle at impact is it.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Sorry guys but you are definitely wrong. Here's why: People flip in order to get the clubhead more closed/less open by getting the clubhead to overtake the hands, which closes the clubface due to the process of "canting". "Canting" is why if you forward press from the address position the clubhead opens and conversely when you move you hands to the right (backward lean the shaft) the clubhead closes. The reationship between the forward or backward leaning of the clubshaft and the clubface alignment is indisputable.

Where you guys are mixing up two distinctly different factors lies in the fact that when you move the hands to the right in the address position (backward lean) your left hand cups. If you remain in the cupped positon and move the shaft back to its original address angle you will see that the cupping of the left wrist has caused the clubface to open and and increased the loft.
Indisputable, irrefutable und undeniable. Its an open and shut case.

You're so wrong on this one its scary. My last post on this.

 

[wulsy]

But when you hit the ball with a flip or a bowed wrist condition the shaft isn't at the original address angle at impact is it.

Good point. But in fact it could be and often is, depending on other factors. However this is actually irrelevant to our discussion. The clubface is closed because the clubhead has overtaken the hands, not because the left wrist is cupped.

You're so wrong on this one its scary. My last post on this.

Kevin, is the club open or shut at the top when the left wrist is cupped? Open or shut at the top when the left wrist is arched/bowed? Everyone knows the answer to this one, right? Cupping opens, arching closes. That's a fact.

I know exactly why you claim that the cupped left wrist closes the face and where greenfee is coming from: it's because of the ASSOCIATION between a cupped left wrist at impact and a closed face. But there is no CAUSATION. Cupping (particularly without moving the clubhead past the hands) produces a rotation of the club in the longitudinal axis of the club, opening the face and increasing loft. In fact that's why the loft has been increased - because the clubface has been opened! Moving the clubhead past the hands "cants" the clubface to a closed position and in the case of flippers causes a cupping (and opening of the face) in the left wrist INCIDENTALLY. The relationship between canting (closing) and cupping (opening by rotation in the longitudinal axis of the club) produces a clubface alignment which sometimes works out not to bad. That's why flippers are not always hookers.

Your last post makes no attempt to justify you argument. No problem. Just read the above and I think you may come to the same conclusion as me.

 

[greenfree]

Good point. But in fact it could be and often is, depending on other factors. However this is actually irrelevant to our discussion. The clubface is closed because the clubhead has overtaken the hands, not because the left wrist is cupped.



Kevin, is the club open or shut at the top when the left wrist is cupped? Open or shut at the top when the left wrist is arched/bowed? Everyone knows the answer to this one, right? Cupping opens, arching closes. That's a fact.

I know exactly why you claim that the cupped left wrist closes the face and where greenfee is coming from: it's because of the ASSOCIATION between a cupped left wrist at impact and a closed face. But there is no CAUSATION. Cupping (particularly without moving the clubhead past the hands) produces a rotation of the club in the longitudinal axis of the club, opening the face and increasing loft. In fact that's why the loft has been increased - because the clubface has been opened! Moving the clubhead past the hands "cants" the clubface to a closed position and in the case of flippers causes a cupping (and opening of the face) in the left wrist INCIDENTALLY. The relationship between canting (closing) and cupping (opening by rotation in the longitudinal axis of the club) produces a clubface alignment which sometimes works out not to bad. That's why flippers are not always hookers.

Your last post makes no attempt to justify you argument. No problem. Just read the above and I think you may come to the same conclusion as me.

There's 2 kinds of flipping/cupping one is under and one is around it depends on what the trailing hand does, it can push the clubhead upwards that adds loft and opens the face or it can push the clubhead sideways or around to the left and close the face. I think one stems from the golfer trying to lift the ball and get underneath it and the other is an attempt to square the face or it could also be both at the same time, just depends on the golfer and their perception of what consitutes impact. JMO.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Good point. But in fact it could be and often is, depending on other factors. However this is actually irrelevant to our discussion. The clubface is closed because the clubhead has overtaken the hands, not because the left wrist is cupped.



Kevin, is the club open or shut at the top when the left wrist is cupped? Open or shut at the top when the left wrist is arched/bowed? Everyone knows the answer to this one, right? Cupping opens, arching closes. That's a fact.

I know exactly why you claim that the cupped left wrist closes the face and where greenfee is coming from: it's because of the ASSOCIATION between a cupped left wrist at impact and a closed face. But there is no CAUSATION. Cupping (particularly without moving the clubhead past the hands) produces a rotation of the club in the longitudinal axis of the club, opening the face and increasing loft. In fact that's why the loft has been increased - because the clubface has been opened! Moving the clubhead past the hands "cants" the clubface to a closed position and in the case of flippers causes a cupping (and opening of the face) in the left wrist INCIDENTALLY. The relationship between canting (closing) and cupping (opening by rotation in the longitudinal axis of the club) produces a clubface alignment which sometimes works out not to bad. That's why flippers are not always hookers.

Your last post makes no attempt to justify you argument. No problem. Just read the above and I think you may come to the same conclusion as me.

At the top, arching puts it below the plane (opens it). Thats why arched players often hook, they are below plane and ROLL It closed into impact or before. Cupped players at the top have the face above, or in front (closed) and work it back under or open. Thats why they slice. Not because its open at the top.

Canting, cupping, tomato, tomahto. We all know what its refferring to. Im talking about bending the left wrist with no twisting about the shaft. I dont think too many people consider "cupping" the left wrist as a rotational movement.

 

[holeout]

I don't think you understood what I said. Clearly there is deceleration at impact. Everybody knows that, right? The question is: deceleration of what, when, by how much and for what reason?

You can't alter the mass of the clubhead at impact with hands forward, behind, whatever. The heavy hit, while it sounds semi logical, is a myth. Scientifically it is not possible.

 

[Ringer]

This may help.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKI9In1dwqg[/media]

 

[wulsy]

You can't alter the mass of the clubhead at impact with hands forward, behind, whatever. The heavy hit, while it sounds semi logical, is a myth. Scientifically it is not possible.

No offence intended, but in your last two comments you make absolute claims about scientific facts and myths as though you alone know what fact and fiction ist. Sorry but that is not the basis for a discussion. Example: "The earth is flat and will never be round".

You can't seriously be claiming that the effective mass of the club head stays the same throughout the swing?

 

[wulsy]

At the top, arching puts it below the plane (opens it). Thats why arched players often hook, they are below plane and ROLL It closed into impact or before. Cupped players at the top have the face above, or in front (closed) and work it back under or open. Thats why they slice. Not because its open at the top.

We've made some progress. BTW, the relationship between plane and arching/cupping is as you say, for sure.

Taking your example:the cupped guy coming in to the ball above plane who has to work it under/open AND get his low point right is never in a million years going to arch in order to open the club and avoid hitting it left. He's going to flip and do something similar to what greenfree says here:

There's 2 kinds of flipping/cupping one is under and one is around it depends on what the trailing hand does, it can push the clubhead upwards that adds loft and opens the face

Canting, cupping, tomato, tomahto. We all know what its refferring to. Im talking about bending the left wrist with no twisting about the shaft. I dont think too many people consider "cupping" the left wrist as a rotational movement.

OK let's stick with canting as the term for a rotation around the vertical axis (like in the forward press) and twisting for a rotation around the longitudinal axis (like in opening/closing by cupping and arching):
Canting without twisting - Backward lean causes the clubface to close relative to the TARGET line (or the alignment of the body), the loft increases and the the left wrist cups.
- Forward lean causes the clubface to open, the loft decreases and the left wrist arches.
This is what you said originaly Kevin. Clearly this is correct, when viewed independently from twisting.

Twisting without canting - Cupping the left wrist twists the clubface open to its PLANE line and increases loft (tends to move the club above plane also - steeper)
- Arching the left wrist twists the clubface closed to its PLANE LINE and decreases loft (tends to move the club below plane - flatter).
This is what I said originaly. Clearly this is correct, when viewed independently from canting.

Its the complex combination between these two disputably independent yet clearly associated movements which determines a lot about ball flight ie clubface relative to plane. See Brian's video The Essential D-PLane [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uepMzddHpas[/media]

BTW, I think greenfree is saying something very similar to this post in his last post

There's 2 kinds of flipping/cupping one is under and one is around it depends on what the trailing hand does, it can push the clubhead upwards that adds loft and opens the face or it can push the clubhead sideways or around to the left and close the face. I think one stems from the golfer trying to lift the ball and get underneath it and the other is an attempt to square the face or it could also be both at the same time, just depends on the golfer and their perception of what consitutes impact.

 

[Ringer]

How about just making them do whatever gets the ball going the way they want it to?

 

[greenfree]

How about just making them do whatever gets the ball going the way they want it to?

Ya think?

 

[wulsy]

How about just making them do whatever gets the ball going the way they want it to?

Great idea, but only if you've got a magic wand.

Keep it simple, but not simpler than it actually is...

 

[Brian Manzella]

Time for the Boss Man to clear up all the mess....

BLOG: Clubface Effects by Brian Manzella

Flattening the left wrist is just a way of closing the face. Bending it through impact helps to avoid a shut face with the club coming in too much from the inside (hooks): thats why you see the cupped wrist post-impact so often on tour.

No.

There are three movements that effect the clubface:

1. Intact Left Arm flying wedge rotation.

2. Twisting the shaft about itself.

3. Bending and Arching the left wrist out side of the Left Arm Flying Wedge/Plane of the Left Wriscock.

​

Ok...effects one at a time....


1. Intact Left Arm flying wedge rotation.

The Left Arm Flying Wedge is simply a term—coined by Homer Kelley—to denote the triangle formed by the geometrically flat left wrist. It is "in the plane" of the left wristcock. It is deemed to "not exist" when the clubshaft is out of the plane of the left arm and left wrist cock. But, in reality, the triangle still exists when the clubshaft is out of this plane, but the clubface alignments change.

Simply put, if the wedge is vertical, the clubface is as well, but vertical may be closed or open to the "direction of swing (HSP, Plane Line)," and different yet to the TRUE PATH. If you turn the wedge open, you turn the face open.

No matter where it occurs in the swing.

​

2. Twisting the shaft about itself.

No matter the grip, no matter where it occurs in the swing, twisting the shaft toward open, opens the face, and bends the left wrist more than it was before the twist.

No matter the grip, no matter where it occurs in the swing, twisting the shaft toward closed, closes the face, and arches the left wrist more than it was before the twist.

As hard as it may be to do, try to keep the IN THE PLANE OF THE LEFT WRISTCOCK TWISTING (BY DEFINITION STILL AN INTACT LEFT ARM FLYING WEDGE) SEPARATE FROM ANY ARCHING OR BENDING THAT MAY OCCUR WHEN THE CLUBSHAFT GETS OUT OF THE PLANE OF THE LEFT WRISTCOCK /STILL AN INTACT LEFT ARM FLYING WEDGE.

Otherwise, your head will explode.​

3. Moving the shaft out of the PLANE OF THE LEFT WRISTCOCK /STILL AN INTACT LEFT ARM FLYING WEDGE, which may include Bending and Arching the left wrist.

It depends on the grip.

But lets assume a normal-ish grip.

If you move the shaft forward of the wedge, in the direction of arch, you open the club at all points in the swing.

If you move the shaft backward of the wedge, in the direction of bent, you close the club at all points in the swing.

These three areas do a lot of overlapping.

​

It took me 28 years to figure all of this out, and there is ZERO information out there as clear and correct as I just presented, and for that I will receive not one copper cent, and ridicule from my critics.

What a business.


..........................


Not as far as Negative Wrist Torque being the THING that keeps the left wrist flat past the ball—besides some help from the ball, or the ground/divot......it is a stone cold fact.

Theoretically, you could roll the crud out of the whole left arm real quick after impact, and you might not need much NEGATIVE WRIST TORQUE (I really think the proper term is NEGATIVE LEFT HAND TORQUE) to keep the left wrist as flat or arched as it was at impact, but good luck with that.

PING MAN5 left wrist bends right after impact.

Free left wrist.

 

[JonWil]

This may help.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKI9In1dwqg[/media]

Thanks Steve; enjoyed it!

 

[wulsy]

BLOG: Clubface Effects by Brian Manzella

There are three movements that effect the clubface:

1. Intact Left Arm flying wedge rotation.

2. Twisting the shaft about itself.

3. Bending and Arching the left wrist out side of the Left Arm Flying Wedge/Plane of the Left Wriscock.

Thanks for your reply, Boss Man. I think you might be right

As I understand you:

1. Intact Left Arm flying wedge rotation: Is pure left arm rotation with vertical wristcock and no change to existing bend of the left wrist, right?

2. Twisting the shaft about itself: Is cupping and bending the left wrist while the relationship between the grip end and the clubhead (shaft angle) remains unchanged, ie a pure twisting or what I referred to as a roatation in the longitudinal axis. Right?

3. Bending and Arching the left wrist out side of the Left Arm Flying Wedge/Plane of the Left Wriscock: Is what Kevin was referring to: what I called roatation in the vertical axis ie moving the grip end of the club and the clubhead in opposite directions, eg waggle. Right?

Not as far as Negative Wrist Torque being the THING that keeps the left wrist flat past the ball—besides some help from the ball, or the ground/divot......it is a stone cold fact.

Theoretically, you could roll the crud out of the whole left arm real quick after impact, and you might not need much NEGATIVE WRIST TORQUE (I really think the proper term is NEGATIVE LEFT HAND TORQUE) to keep the left wrist as flat or arched as it was at impact, but good luck with that.

PING MAN5 left wrist bends right after impact.

Free left wrist.

A lot of left arm rotation would effectively be a different way of producing a NEGATIVE LEFT HAND TORQUE effect. But it would tend to close the face to the plane by arching the left wrist as a result of a twisting of the shaft around itself (point number 2. above) as the club would tend to remain in an intact left arm flying wedge rotation (because left arm rotation, as you suggest, produces an additional negative left hand torque effect, thus preventing bending and promoting arching á la point 3. above).

Is this why PING MAN5 bends, and so many tour players bend also? To avoid a shut face? Could be.

 

[Ringer]

Great idea, but only if you've got a magic wand.

Keep it simple, but not simpler than it actually is...

Actually it's very easy.

Try it one way, if it works keep it.. if not then do it the other way. Although I can't imagine a scenario where I'd tell someone to intentionally bend their left wrist after impact, won't rule it out completely.

 

[holeout]

No offence intended, but in your last two comments you make absolute claims about scientific facts and myths as though you alone know what fact and fiction ist. Sorry but that is not the basis for a discussion. Example: "The earth is flat and will never be round".

You can't seriously be claiming that the effective mass of the club head stays the same throughout the swing?

Sorry if I came across haughty or arrogant. Its just that its been discussed to death around here.

But it remains that the heavy hit is a myth. You cannot change the effective mass of the clubhead. Speed is all that matters.

And no, I don't have any links to studies proving this. Ask Mandrin for those .

 

[greenfree]

Sorry if I came across haughty or arrogant. Its just that its been discussed to death around here.

But it remains that the heavy hit is a myth. You cannot change the effective mass of the clubhead. Speed is all that matters.

And no, I don't have any links to studies proving this. Ask Mandrin for those .

Not to start a big deal, but is it just speed that matters? wasn't there more to it?