When does the flat left wrist stop being flat? (with Manzella Video Answer & BLOG)

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ej20

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This business of the left wrist bending big time just after impact being 3 times more common on tour....i just don't see it and i hope it's not just me that is seeing a lack of examples being posted on this thread.

I have posted Tiger,Phil,Snead and I will post Ishikawa although he hasn't won a major yet.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHeaV0PVfZM[/media]

Can't embed this video for some reason.
 
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ej20

New
I think one thing should be cleared up at this point.I think a lot of people here are assuming that a flat left wrist equals a bent right wrist because there is still of lot of TGM influence on this forum.They see the right wrist flattening and mistaken that to be the left wrist bending and flipping.It is absolutely possible and desireable to have both wrists flat in the followthrough as displayed by tour pros.

If you look at most of the good players you will see both wrists flat at both arms straight in the follow through,not the perverted TGM flat left wrist/bent right wrist at both arms straight method.

The TGM version is not how the tour players do it unless it was a specialty shot.
 
natep

natep

New
@ej20

I agree with you. Both wrists almost straight when both arms are straight.

I for one was confused and thought we were talking about the TGM nonsense of bent right wrist at both arms straight.

I can even understand the bent right wrist with the mid/short irons, but certainly not with a driver.
 
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Ringer

New
natep said:
@ej20

I agree with you. Both wrists almost straight when both arms are straight.

I for one was confused and thought we were talking about the TGM nonsense of bent right wrist at both arms straight.

I can even understand the bent right wrist with the mid/short irons, but certainly not with a driver.
Click to expand...

You CAN get a bent right wrist when both arms are straight. But when the elbows are turned inward and close to each other then you'll get relatively flat wrists on both hands. The key is the further apart the elbows are the more bend one of the wrists will have.
 
B

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Waste of my time.

Damon Lucas is getting the MATT System in a couple of weeks. We will have the actual 3D on many, many current tour players.

We'll see what everyone's hands do through impact.

Until then, I'd rather watch the grass grow really. I teach a flat left wrist to the first parallel past impact—at a minimum—to 90% of my students.

I am trying to be inclusive.

As far as the clubface stuff, I'll do a video so you all can see what the words mean.

:)
 
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SteveT

Guest
I always thought that 'centrifugal' force that pulls you off balance also stretches both your wrists in final release and Impact. :confused:

The pre-Impact 100mph clubhead drops in speed to about 80mph when the ball and club are plastered together during Impact, and then upon separation, the club speed drops to about 70mph and the ball shoots off at about 135mph. (ref.: SPS)

You would think that the sudden deceleration of the clubhead and then the club handle, and with the hands and arms still speeding unaffected they will outrace the club handle ... and thus the lead wrist will not only flatten out, it could even arch ... ya think ..??!!!! :eek:

Soooo ... centrifugal force plus hands and arms outracing the decelerating golf club ... shouldn't that be enough to flatten the lead wrist .. just asking ....??!!!
 
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natep

natep

New
Ringer said:
You CAN get a bent right wrist when both arms are straight. But when the elbows are turned inward and close to each other then you'll get relatively flat wrists on both hands. The key is the further apart the elbows are the more bend one of the wrists will have.
Click to expand...

Yes I understand. I just don't think it's imperative to have bent right wrist when both arms are straight.
 
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ej20

New
Sergio with a flat left wrist well after impact.I have posted every video from this angle because it is the best to judge the left wrist just after impact.Also note the flat right wrist together with a FLW at both arms straight signalling a full release with the clubhead passing the hands unlike a TGM release where the clubhead never passes the hands due to the bent right wrist.

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leon

New
Sorry for dragging this thread up again after Brian so eloquently put it to bed, but I've been 'off the grid' for a week and am just catching up. There were a couple of vague physics-based statements I wanted to argue (really, just for fun and because I can again after my week away :))

SteveT said:
You would think that the sudden deceleration of the clubhead and then the club handle, and with the hands and arms still speeding unaffected they will outrace the club handle ... and thus the lead wrist will not only flatten out, it could even arch ... ya think ..??!!!! :eek:

Soooo ... centrifugal force plus hands and arms outracing the decelerating golf club ... shouldn't that be enough to flatten the lead wrist .. just asking ....??!!!
Click to expand...

How fast are the hands moving in comparison to the clubhead at impact? (I have no idea by the way, but I'd be interested if anyone knows). I'd argue that whilst you are correct the clubhead slows down, it is still travelling faster than the hands, just less so after impact. So the velocity of the clubhead relative to the hands remains positive throughout impact and beyond, causing the left wrist to 'bend' - unless you let go of the club or apply a liberal dose of negative torque both before and throughout impact (I think this is what Brian was saying, apologies if I didn't get it quite right)

wulsy said:
Negative Left Wrist Torque nicely explained, thanks Brian. As one would expect intuitively, this leads to a negative acceleration of the angular velocity of the club. Why do it then? Because a bent and bending left wrist at impact (assuming a neutral grip) would reduce the mass of the clubhead (law of conservation of angular momentum) and therefore the force into the ball (F = ma).
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do you really mean 'mass'? As in the number you see if you put your club on the scales (technically this is weight, but I don't want to get into an argument over semantics, I get enough of that at work!) Unless you have loose adjustable weights or something breaks off, there is no way you can reduce the mass of the clubhead during the swing.

You mention conservation of angular momentum (where the momentum is given by mass x radius x tangential velocity) so are you trying to say that by somehow reducing the radius you will increase the velocity of the club? I'm not sure you are as I don't see how the radius would be reduced, but it's all I can get from what you have said. If so then this is correct, although only for a closed system (i.e. no external forces). In the golf swing I'd assume you are applying some external force, unless maybe you are Jim Flick! (sorry, I couldn't resist - I like some of Jim's stuff, but I've always assumed this is who Brian means whet he talks about 'those people that thing the body will respond to the arms' - am I right?). If not, then can you clarify your statement?
 
natep

natep

New
Does mass increase with speed, or is this just a theoretical speed of light type calculation?

(Sorry if this is a dumb question, I should've paid more attention in college.):D
 
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leon

New
natep said:
Does mass increase with speed, or is this just a theoretical speed of light type calculation?

(Sorry if this is a dumb question, I should've paid more attention in college.):D
Click to expand...

Only if your name is Einstein :)

Not sure what you are thinking here, and I'm no physicist, just a dumb engineer, but I don't believe mass changes with speed. Mass is a measure of the amount of 'stuff' something consists of, so an increasing mass would imply you are creating matter (I think). Weight might well change, as this is just a measure of the force exerted by the mass, due to whatever gravitational field you happen to be in (the earth's, usually!) If you accelerate the mass then you can increase the force it exerts and so it's measured weight would appear to increase also.

I don't think any of this effects the flatness of your left wrist though :D
 
B

Brian Manzella

Administrator
An important note.

First of all, thanks Leon, obviously you are very correct.

Second, does "ej20" want a flat left wrist, or the "club up the left arm."

They are VERY DIFFERENT things you know.
 
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ej20

New
Brian,a flat left wrist with a flat right wrist at both arms straight with a full roll of the left forearm.

The club up the left arm is synonymous with holding a bent right wrist and no left forearm rotation way past impact.It is ok to do it like this but only for certain shots unless I have misunderstood your meaning of club up the left arm.

Is this what you mean by club up the left arm?
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ej20

New
Here's an example of both wrist flat at both both arms straight with a full roll.

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wulsy

New
leon said:
do you really mean 'mass'? As in the number you see if you put your club on the scales (technically this is weight, but I don't want to get into an argument over semantics, I get enough of that at work!) Unless you have loose adjustable weights or something breaks off, there is no way you can reduce the mass of the clubhead during the swing. You mention conservation of angular momentum (where the momentum is given by mass x radius x tangential velocity) so are you trying to say that by somehow reducing the radius you will increase the velocity of the club? I'm not sure you are as I don't see how the radius would be reduced, but it's all I can get from what you have said. If so then this is correct, although only for a closed system (i.e. no external forces). In the golf swing I'd assume you are applying some external force, unless maybe you are Jim Flick! (sorry, I couldn't resist - I like some of Jim's stuff, but I've always assumed this is who Brian means whet he talks about 'those people that thing the body will respond to the arms' - am I right?). If not, then can you clarify your statement?..........

Not sure what you are thinking here, and I'm no physicist, just a dumb engineer, but I don't believe mass changes with speed. Mass is a measure of the amount of 'stuff' something consists of, so an increasing mass would imply you are creating matter (I think). Weight might well change, as this is just a measure of the force exerted by the mass, due to whatever gravitational field you happen to be in (the earth's, usually!) If you accelerate the mass then you can increase the force it exerts and so it's measured weight would appear to increase also.

I don't think any of this effects the flatness of your left wrist though :D
Click to expand...

I'm no physicist either, just a dumb golfpro.:) Having looked up a few of the terms, I think you are very probably right about the weight changing rather than the mass changing. I was refering to the idea that a weight on the end of a long stick moving fast is "heavier" than a stationary weight on the end of a short stick. Maybe this is "inertial mass" - I don't know and probably never will, but it doesn't change the aforementioned concept.

I don't think anyone really knows enough about physics to represent the golf swing completely correctly. Its just such a big mix of many forces interacting with each other. I'm not even sure whether any law of physics can be viewed completely independently anyway. I'm clearly at my limit in terms of the knowledge of physics required. That's why Brian has teamed up with those guys, cause there aint many physicist golfpros or golfpro physicis about on our big blue ball.;))But as I say, I'm just a dumb golfpro who is trying to understand as much as I can about the swing. BTW, the more I understand the better I hit it!

Regarding whether it has an effect on the flat left wrist, the amount of Negative Left Wrist Torque would have to increase if the effective weight/inertial mass of the clubhead increased in order to maintain the FLW, no?

PS Here's what I tried to fathom:

"In normal situations, the weight of an object is proportional to its mass, which usually makes it unproblematic to use the same unit for both concepts. However, the distinction between mass and weight becomes important for measurements with a precision better than a few percent (because of slight differences in the strength of the Earth's gravitational field at different places), and for places far from the surface of the Earth, such as in space or on other planets.

"Mass is a conserved quantity. From the viewpoint of any single unaccelerated observer, mass can neither be created or destroyed, and special relativity does not change this understanding. However, relativity adds the fact that all types of energy have an associated mass, and this mass is added to systems when energy is added, and the associated mass is subtracted from systems when the energy leaves. In such cases, the energy leaving or entering the system, carries the added or missing mass with it, since this energy itself has mass."
 
Dariusz J.

Dariusz J.

New member
I wonder if defenders of "flat left wrist" whatever it may mean LOL take into account the resistance of the ground and its impact on the lead wrist condition.

Cheers
 
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