When does the flat left wrist stop being flat? (with Manzella Video Answer & BLOG)

[wulsy]

dumbest. thread. ever.

You're obviously just too intelligent and capable for those contributing to this thread Jim. And you have a really nice motorbike. Maybe you should start your own forum for smart guys with nice bikes and vet all the posts to check they're not too dumb before publishing.

 

[leon]

I'm no physicist either, just a dumb golfpro. Having looked up a few of the terms, I think you are very probably right about the weight changing rather than the mass changing. I was refering to the idea that a weight on the end of a long stick moving fast is "heavier" than a stationary weight on the end of a short stick. Maybe this is "inertial mass" - I don't know and probably never will, but it doesn't change the aforementioned concept.

I don't think anyone really knows enough about physics to represent the golf swing completely correctly. Its just such a big mix of many forces interacting with each other. I'm not even sure whether any law of physics can be viewed completely independently anyway. I'm clearly at my limit in terms of the knowledge of physics required. That's why Brian has teamed up with those guys, cause there aint many physicist golfpros or golfpro physicis about on our big blue ball.)But as I say, I'm just a dumb golfpro who is trying to understand as much as I can about the swing. BTW, the more I understand the better I hit it!

Regarding whether it has an effect on the flat left wrist, the amount of Negative Left Wrist Torque would have to increase if the effective weight/inertial mass of the clubhead increased in order to maintain the FLW, no?

I'm not sure what you mean by 'heavier', but I'm guessing by your mass on a stick analogy you are thinking about energy or inertia, which are both functions of mass and velocity. For a given mass on your stick, then the only thing you can change to affect the energy/inertia is the velocity of that mass. You can do this by rotating the other end of the stick faster, or making the stick longer.

PS Here's what I tried to fathom:

"In normal situations, the weight of an object is proportional to its mass, which usually makes it unproblematic to use the same unit for both concepts. However, the distinction between mass and weight becomes important for measurements with a precision better than a few percent (because of slight differences in the strength of the Earth's gravitational field at different places), and for places far from the surface of the Earth, such as in space or on other planets.

"Mass is a conserved quantity. From the viewpoint of any single unaccelerated observer, mass can neither be created or destroyed, and special relativity does not change this understanding. However, relativity adds the fact that all types of energy have an associated mass, and this mass is added to systems when energy is added, and the associated mass is subtracted from systems when the energy leaves. In such cases, the energy leaving or entering the system, carries the added or missing mass with it, since this energy itself has mass."

"weight" is simply the product of mass and gravitational acceleration, so the first section is just saying that as gravity varies (although only a little) over the Earth, the weight of an object isn't EXACTLY the same everywhere.

The second bit is getting into relativity, which is way over my head, but I don't think it is of any consequence unless you are talking about velocities getting near to the speed of light. If you could swing a golf club that fast, I don't think it would matter how bent your left wrist was

I think we're WAY off topic now (although I'm enjoying discussing relativistic physics on a golf forum )

 

[wulsy]

They attempt to tie the mass of the body to the clubhead in an effort to increase the effective mass of the club to reduce impact deceleration. ...............I don't teach extensor action to anyone. If they have it great. But it isn't adding anything to any swing as far as effective mass goes.

Hi Leon,

Bmanz ist also using the term mass and talks about increasing the effective mass. You haven't commented on the correctness of his terminology. You did however wish to correct mine, in a thread where a Manzella Instructor was disputing whether left wrist cupping opens or closes and where the boss man himself stepped in to sort out the confusion. It seems to me that your position may not quite as neutral as I originaly thought. You're obviously involved with the inner circle , which is great for you.

Leon,

We did get to talk to Alan and he was extremely nice and very helpful....we actually had an interesting conversation about the state of dispensing the information....it was refreshing to hear this kind of talk from a person in his position...he was our third source on a lot of controversial impact topics.....nice to know that the guys in his position to know actually agree...

I dropped your name and that seemed to be the key.....

We'll keep you informed along the way....thanks for your help!

Quotes from thread http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/...at-happened-chop-now-blog-brian-manzella.html

 

[ej20]

I wonder if defenders of "flat left wrist" whatever it may mean LOL take into account the resistance of the ground and its impact on the lead wrist condition.

Cheers

Not sure what you are trying to say but the video of Mickelson with a "flat left wrist" was him swinging a driver,not an iron....and no,he did not take a divot.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

You're obviously just too intelligent and capable for those contributing to this thread Jim. And you have a really nice motorbike. Maybe you should start your own forum for smart guys with nice bikes and vet all the posts to check they're not too dumb before publishing.

Sorry if you can't detect the hint of sarcasm. Maybe i should have added a ""

However i was being half serious, the ball is long gone so it doesn't matter imo. Where the wrist is and where it breaks has a ton to do with grip and technique you employed BEFORE impact and the resulting condition is a RESULT of everything you did before because as i said, the ball is long gone.

 

[dbl]

Hi Leon,

Bmanz ist also using the term mass and talks about increasing the effective mass.

I think that Brian is using terms like effective mass ("..in an...effort to increase the effective mass of the club to reduce impact deceleration.") because there is a theory out there involving those terms and he was providing his alternative view. So I wouldn't use it as a evidence of any creedence not for any alleged need to correct BMan's terms.

 

[leon]

Hi Leon,

Bmanz ist also using the term mass and talks about increasing the effective mass. You haven't commented on the correctness of his terminology. You did however wish to correct mine, in a thread where a Manzella Instructor was disputing whether left wrist cupping opens or closes and where the boss man himself stepped in to sort out the confusion. It seems to me that your position may not quite as neutral as I originaly thought. You're obviously involved with the inner circle , which is great for you.

I'm guessing I've upset you, or at least rubbed you up the wrong way. That wasn't my intention and if I did then I'm sorry. You said you were trying to figure stuff out and I was just trying to help, that's all.

I have to admit I'd missed Brian's reference to 'effective mass'. I'll also admit I'm not sure what he's referring to (other than its something from TGM, which I haven't read). My best guess is that there is some school of thought that thinks you can increase the mass of the clubhead, as far as the ball is concerned, such that it is 'heavier' during the impact and hence decellerates less. If so then I think that's junk, there is no way the ball can know anything about what is on the other end of the shaft during the impact interval - the shaft is too long and flexible and the impact duration is too short. I also think (although I could be wrong) that Brian agrees - his blog in that thread includes a long list of TGM stuff he doesn't teach.

But as always I am happy to be proven wrong. I often am (usually by my wife )

And I'm not part of any circle, inner or otherwise. I gave Mike Finney a steer on someone I thought could help them with golf science. It worked out, and I'm stoked for them. That's all.

 

[ej20]

Sorry if you can't detect the hint of sarcasm. Maybe i should have added a ""

However i was being half serious, the ball is long gone so it doesn't matter imo. Where the wrist is and where it breaks has a ton to do with grip and technique you employed BEFORE impact and the resulting condition is a RESULT of everything you did before because as i said, the ball is long gone.

Jim,I can't argue with your logic and I am not trying to.All I'm saying is that great players don't flip their left wrist through impact but plenty of average players do.This is my logic.

And as regards to Ping Man,it is not an accurate representation of a human player.It is a one armed robot and in my opinion that one arm represents the right arm in a righ handed player,not the left.That "flip" you see with Ping Man is equivalent to the right wrist flattening through impact,not the left wrist bending.

And Jim,sometimes it pays to be a little humble regaradless of how much "current" knowledge you think you have.It wasn't that long ago that this forum was as pro TGM as any other on this planet.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Jim,I can't argue with your logic and I am not trying to.All I'm saying is that great players don't flip their left wrist through impact but plenty of average players do.This is my logic.

you can't compare avg ballstrikers with excellent ballstrikers, it isn't fair to compare imo. Most avg players flip because they are trying to square the face.

And Jim,sometimes it pays to be a little humble regaradless of how much "current" knowledge you think you have.It wasn't that long ago that this forum was as pro TGM as any other on this planet.

Not trying to pretend i know it all, i really don't. I just feel it really doesn't matter, again my feel and my opinion.

 

[StevePratt]

There is a precise spot where the left hand achieves 'flatness', and then should be freely going into dorsiflexion. This spot is where the left arm is directly even with and underneath the left shoulder. This is where the driver is typically played. Any attempt to keep the left wrist flat after this point only serves to impede the progress of the clubhead and decelerate it.

 

[wulsy]

StevePratt, this is a claim without any scientific basis, I assume. Or do you have the numbers?

Thankfully Bmanz and his team are trying to get to the facts and for that we should be grateful at the end of the day. Claiming this or that to be factual when noone really knows the facts is futile.

Leon, sorry, I overreacted. Thanks for you input.

Jim, no worries, I didn't realise your comment was tongue in cheek.

 

[ej20]

Any attempt to keep the left wrist flat after this point only serves to impede the progress of the clubhead and decelerate it.

The ball doesn't know or care what the clubhead does after impact.

You know what,Hogan said exactly the opposite in 5L.He said bending the left wrist(dorsiflexion) will impede the speed of the clubhead.

 

[Kevin Shields]

You probably "prepare" to keep it flat, and in doing so, brake a bit prior. Not everyone, but i sure do when i try.

 

[ej20]

Both wrist flat,full roll....man,I love bizhub.Fast forward to 0:45

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[ScottRob]

I have worked a long time on keeping my left wrist flat etc. To me it seems to promote the out to right field (or lunch if you prefer) super-duper in to out path...then you just add a super-duper swivel to get it back again. A lot of shots left of chomsky! Also (in my case) my shaft exits very high, basically between my shoulder and ear. I have noticed that a lot of premier ball striker's sweetspot exits below the shoulder, in some cases mid-rib. Fooling around, it occured to me that it is advantageous to allow the right wrist to flatten in order to get the sweetspot moving left. Is this a reasonable observation. I noticed this in particular with Sam Snead.

Sidenote: nearest Trackman to me charges $175 an hour!

 

[Kevin Shields]

Crikeys! Where are you?

 

[ScottRob]

Boomer...Sooner!

Oklahoma. E.J. Pfister has access to one at Oak Tree. I do not believe that he owns it. Very nice guy...knows all about the D-plane too. He has nothing to do with the pricing. Anybody else in the heartland have one of them gizmos?


[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hg7Gr-93IRo[/media]

I'm sure you guys have seen everything on Youtube already but I though the hand action of the person that hogan thought was best tee to green was instructive!

 

[ej20]

Oklahoma. E.J. Pfister has access to one at Oak Tree. I do not believe that he owns it. Very nice guy...knows all about the D-plane too. He has nothing to do with the pricing. Anybody else in the heartland have one of them gizmos?


[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hg7Gr-93IRo[/media]

I'm sure you guys have seen everything on Youtube already but I though the hand action of the person that hogan thought was best tee to green was instructive!

You are just going to post this one single example of Mehlhorn to make your point?Have you seen any other footage of his swings?

This particular swing could be a high flop shot he is attempting.If you watch his follow through it is way,way shorter than the full swing he makes at the end of the video.

Also are you sure that is Mehlhorn?There has been plenty examples of mistaken identities especially when it comes to players not many people are familiar with.How many people actually knows what he looks like?It could be Wild Bill Hickok for all we know.

 

[Dariusz J.]

You are just going to post this one single example of Mehlhorn to make your point?Have you seen any other footage of his swings?

This particular swing could be a high flop shot he is attempting.If you watch his follow through it is way,way shorter than the full swing he makes at the end of the video.

Also are you sure that is Mehlhorn?There has been plenty examples of mistaken identities especially when it comes to players not many people are familiar with.How many people actually knows what he looks like?It could be Wild Bill Hickok for all we know.

It is my film and I can assure you that it is Wild Bill Mehlhorn.
Besides, you obviously do not know much about the slap-hinge release type. I do not blame you at all, bs instruction post the 60-ies made it completely forgotten.

Cheers

 

[ej20]

It is my film and I can assure you that it is Wild Bill Mehlhorn.
Besides, you obviously do not know much about the slap-hinge release type. I do not blame you at all, bs instruction post the 60-ies made it completely forgotten.

Cheers

How can you be so sure?I am not saying it definitely is not him but the hat covers his face.Just because you found a video of someone that dresses like him doesn't prove anything.Post some more videos that at least show part of his face.

If you watch this video of Mehlhorn you can see his follow through is totally different to the one you posted.Much more dynamic with more extension.You can also see that his head dips through impact similar to Trevino.The video you show does not have that head dip.

Mehlhorn I assume is the one with the hat.

BILL MEHLHORN WINS MIAMI GOLF TOURNAMENT - 1930 - Stock Footage