wouldn't the one that can sustain the power and speed best give the longer distance? reason is ask is that yes, speed is speed, but if the ball stays on the clubface for even the smallest amount, the person that cannot maintain that speed the most through the ball will lose just a tad amount of energy and speed by the time the ball actually leaves. is this somewhat true?
Year end musings
- Thread starter mandrin
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mandrin
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JonWil,The 'heavy golfer' model will have a 'large' difference in the result since Mandrin's 'direct link' setup greatly differentiates the masses involved. "How bout them apples?"
If I understand correctly you feel that the ‘heavy golfer’ model will have a much larger departure velocity.
Hence we have now two posters thinking along this line.
It takes guts to not go along with the majority.
mandrin
New
mjstrong,
Smart intuitive reasoning but do it a bit more closer resembling the case at hand.
Throw a ball towards a very light brick weighing the same as the club head, hence only a tiny 200 gram, and also at a solid brick wall.
Still quite convinced there is no difference?
mandrin
New
Bruce,
There is not much of a difference between ball, 46 grams, and clubhead, 200 grams, only about 4.5 times. Don’t you feel that if I increased the ‘club head’ mass let’s say from 200 to 400 grams there would be a difference?
Are you perhaps doubting there is a trick involved since I, indeed on purpose, deliberately choose the heavy mass extremely large and this extreme choice influenced perhaps your opinion?
mandrin
New
Jim,
You probably also guessed that his thread is not so much about being scientifically right or wrong but rather to get some idea of intuition at work in golf. We will see soon if intuitive reasoning is statistically right this time.
mandrin
New
pieman,
It does not matter if you are right or wrong, we will see about that later. I am curious about our intuition as it acts in golf.
Am I correct, interpreting that your intuition tells you that there must be a significant difference in departure speed ?
mandrin
New
jpeck,
Is it hence correct to assume that you expect, with a extremely heavy clubhead, there to be a reasonable significant increase in departure velocity?
Jon Hardesty
New
Intuitively I think people would pick the larger mass object to increase the velocity of the ball. However, knowing what I think I know, I am staying with my original position in saying that there will be no difference in velocity. Intuition is different from fact.
Vicious Circle
New
The difference would be negligible IMO.There would be an impulse delivered by the ball to the light steel shaft in both examples and in both examples, the ball is long gone before the impulse gets to the heavy golfer or to the free end of the shaft. The properties of whatever lies just beyond the clubhead in either example are not available to influence the ball.
Ryan Smither
Super Moderator
Intuition, eh...
I'll take the other route ... Daddy needs golf balls ... Large mass produces less velocity
I'll take the other route ... Daddy needs golf balls ... Large mass produces less velocity
It is easy to see that the 200g mass looses a significant amount of it's velocity as it transfers energy to the ball. The large mass on the other hand does not slow down significantly.
What is more difficult to figure out how much difference this makes to the ball velocity, i.e. how much more kinetic energy can the big mass transfer because it does not slow down much in the process.
I'd say it does make a difference, but not very much.
Someone must have tried different weight driver heads with a swing robot that can be made to generate the same club head speed regardless of weight.
Anyway, it'll be interesting to see your results, Mandrin.
What is more difficult to figure out how much difference this makes to the ball velocity, i.e. how much more kinetic energy can the big mass transfer because it does not slow down much in the process.
I'd say it does make a difference, but not very much.
Someone must have tried different weight driver heads with a swing robot that can be made to generate the same club head speed regardless of weight.
Anyway, it'll be interesting to see your results, Mandrin.
It seems that the reason for the absence of a "heavy hit" in golf is because the shaft deflects and you can't increase the "effective mass" of the hit. But in your example, mandrin, the "shaft" part is directly behind the clubhead. You never specified whether it would "deflect" or not upon striking the ball. If it doesn't, would it be right to say that all of the mass would be directed to the ball? Because if all the mass is directed at the ball, at the same speed, the golfer in Fig. 1 would produce a higher ball speed, right?
I'm curious for the answer...
I'm curious for the answer...
mandrin
New
Ryan,
Very Intriguing. Are you simply guessing or is there an intuitive reasoning behind your refreshingly different opinion.
mandrin
New
jake2,
Interesting arguments. I agree that it is difficult to make a logical decision just using intuition.
mandrin
New
holeout,
I did mention in post #11 in this thread that the shaft does not buckle, hence it is assumed there to be no deflection of the shaft. Indeed, as a consequence, we have all the mass behind the ball in line with the strike.
Ryan Smither
Super Moderator
Intuition tells me you're playing with us. Thus, I picked the most illogical response.
mjstrong
New
mjstrong,
Smart intuitive reasoning but do it a bit more closer resembling the case at hand.
Throw a ball towards a very light brick weighing the same as the club head, hence only a tiny 200 gram, and also at a solid brick wall.
Still quite convinced there is no difference?
Okay, I'll do by best "more scientific" approach. Momentum and collision formulae. Can I make some assumptions? I will.
First off, it bothers me that you listed the length of the club shaft in your examples, but I do not account for them in my guess. Oh well.
Looking at the second scenario: Taking into account the clubhead's mass, the clubhead's mass, and the ball's mass, and assuming a resultant ball speed of 240km/h (1.5 smash factor assumption), the clubhead's post-collision velocity should be about 109.8 km/h.
Now, here's where I don't believe myself. I'll assume that slowdown ratio (clubhead slowing down from 160 to 109.8, or 68.6%) applies to the heavier mass. So...you know what, I'm not going to continue because my resultant ball speed would be millions of kilometre's per hour. Probably barking up the wrong tree....
mandrin
New
starretj,My guess is that the heavy mass will have an 18% increase in initial ball speed due to the increase in the ratio of the masses in the examples.
I hope that I am correct, I can always use some new golf balls.
I like your way of thinking. Clear and straight from the hip. No beating around the bush.
I hope that Brian has put some golf balls aside.
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