Interesting question....

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mgranato

mgranato

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Outside of golf, I've got to see nearly every athlete who truly did the things necessary make marketable improvements in their quickness. On the other hand, I've witnessed hardly anyone make marketable improvements in their speed. Speed seems to be something one either has or doesn't. If you have it, it can be optimized, but if you don't you better be quick. One of the biggest "cheats" to improving quickness is to think quicker and process faster.

As far as the swing goes, is it better to be quick or fast?
 
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Lifter

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mgranato said:
Outside of golf, I've got to see nearly every athlete who truly did the things necessary make marketable improvements in their quickness. On the other hand, I've witnessed hardly anyone make marketable improvements in their speed. Speed seems to be something one either has or doesn't. If you have it, it can be optimized, but if you don't you better be quick. One of the biggest "cheats" to improving quickness is to think quicker and process faster.

As far as the swing goes, is it better to be quick or fast?
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mgranato,

Interesting that you look at it as "quick vs. fast."

Here's how I see it. It's always seemed to me that ability to generate clubhead speed is similar to your body's ability to pitch a baseball hard. There's a lot I could do to improve my pitching technique. But still, I have a lot of friends who are bigger than me and will always be able to throw a baseball harder than me no matter what.

Maybe ability to pitch submarine style is a more accurate indicator of golf distance potential. But there's probably a strong correlation with pitching overhanded as well.
 
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Lifter

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Thinking more about "quick" vs. "fast"......I personally see the main distinction as "big and strong" vs. "flexible." I would imagine that some baseball pitchers mostly rely on their size and strength. Other pitchers, meanwhile, might use a very different technique that relies on their flexibility.

In golf, think of Michelle Wie: flexible vs. Laura Davies: big and strong?
 
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Virtuoso

Virtuoso

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Lifter said:
mgranato,

Interesting that you look at it as "quick vs. fast."

Here's how I see it. It's always seemed to me that ability to generate clubhead speed is similar to your body's ability to pitch a baseball hard. There's a lot I could do to improve my pitching technique. But still, I have a lot of friends who are bigger than me and will always be able to throw a baseball harder than me no matter what.

Maybe ability to pitch submarine style is a more accurate indicator of golf distance potential. But there's probably a strong correlation with pitching overhanded as well.
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Lifter, here is the real problem. The amount of energy it takes to throw a baseball and swing a club does not scale in a linear fasion as you go up in speed. "Energy scales with velocity SQUARED" so it's a much bigger leap to go from 105 mph clubhead speed to 110 than it is to go from 85 to 90.

So, when you are working with a slow amateur, and you add 5 mph, you wouldn't say: "Wow, you must have the unique genetic qualities it takes to increase clubhead speed!" But, if you take a college player and go from say 107 to 112, then you might be working with some good genetic qualities and be doing some mega good teaching because you both had to find a whole hoard of extra energy.
 
Virtuoso

Virtuoso

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johnnymarlboro said:
Plus any time someone starts something with "Not to be racist" it usually ends up being racist.
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Any time you hear a qualifier, get ready for a beeeach slapping....

On the other hand, the PC bio-sphere has made it such that even quietly uttering some very basic and demonstrable facts will get you deep roasted.
 
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Lifter

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Virtuoso said:
Lifter, here is the real problem. The amount of energy it takes to throw a baseball and swing a club does not scale in a linear fasion as you go up in speed. "Energy scales with velocity SQUARED" so it's a much bigger leap to go from 105 mph clubhead speed to 110 than it is to go from 85 to 90.

So, when you are working with a slow amateur, and you add 5 mph, you wouldn't say: "Wow, you must have the unique genetic qualities it takes to increase clubhead speed!" But, if you take a college player and go from say 107 to 112, then you might be working with some good genetic qualities and be doing some mega good teaching because you both had to find a whole hoard of extra energy.
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Good point about the amateur. I think what you're saying is that the amateur is performing well below his physical potential so its easier to get him to improve his speed. The college player is probably operating far closer to his physical potential than the amateur is.
 
Virtuoso

Virtuoso

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Lifter said:
Good point about the amateur. I think what you're saying is that the amateur is performing well below his physical potential so its easier to get him to improve his speed. The college player is probably operating far closer to his physical potential than the amateur is.
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Well, kind of, what I'm actually saying is that regardless of how close one is to his potential, at higher speed ranges it's exponentially more difficult to add speed. That fact exists regardless. So, you can't really compare situations. You can't just have a big debate about how to add speed in general.

In other words, one teacher will say, "I just can't get my student to swing faster than 110!" Another will respond and say, "Well, you just don't know what to tell him because I had a student that was only swinging 80 mph and I got him up to 92!" These two situations have very little bearing on each other.

With the 80 mph guy, you give him a little bigger hip turn, a little more arm swing, a little more wrist hinge, and teach him a little better sequence, and Kabloey! 10 more mph's! Helping the 110 mph student is a whole different program.
 
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Lifter

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Virtuoso said:
Well, kind of, what I'm actually saying is that regardless of how close one is to his potential, at higher speed ranges it's exponentially more difficult to add speed. That fact exists regardless. So, you can't really compare situations. You can't just have a big debate about how to add speed in general.

In other words, one teacher will say, "I just can't get my student to swing faster than 110!" Another will respond and say, "Well, you just don't know what to tell him because I had a student that was only swinging 80 mph and I got him up to 92!" These two situations have very little bearing on each other.

With the 80 mph guy, you give him a little bigger hip turn, a little more arm swing, a little more wrist hinge, and teach him a little better sequence, and Kabloey! 10 more mph's! Helping the 110 mph student is a whole different program.
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I think all of that's fair. And my personal swing speed isn't awful. It's around 105 mph with a 44.5-inch driver. A friend of mine recently suggested that I need to spend most of my time working on consistency.

Consistency? Putting? Wedges? That's so.......boring! And I'm 31 years old. Not getting any younger. Why not strive for more distance and try to take my distance potential to the next level while I'm still skinny? Can't I put off working on consistency until I'm 45 years old with a bigger belly? :)
 
jimmyt

jimmyt

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Virtuoso said:
Well, kind of, what I'm actually saying is that regardless of how close one is to his potential, at higher speed ranges it's exponentially more difficult to add speed. That fact exists regardless. So, you can't really compare situations. You can't just have a big debate about how to add speed in general.

In other words, one teacher will say, "I just can't get my student to swing faster than 110!" Another will respond and say, "Well, you just don't know what to tell him because I had a student that was only swinging 80 mph and I got him up to 92!" These two situations have very little bearing on each other.

With the 80 mph guy, you give him a little bigger hip turn, a little more arm swing, a little more wrist hinge, and teach him a little better sequence, and Kabloey! 10 more mph's! Helping the 110 mph student is a whole different program.
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Agree 100%
 
Virtuoso

Virtuoso

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Lifter said:
I think all of that's fair. And my personal swing speed isn't awful. It's around 105 mph with a 44.5-inch driver. A friend of mine recently suggested that I need to spend most of my time working on consistency.

Consistency? Putting? Wedges? That's so.......boring! And I'm 31 years old. Not getting any younger. Why not strive for more distance and try to take my distance potential to the next level while I'm still skinny? Can't I put off working on consistency until I'm 45 years old with a bigger belly? :)
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Don't let anyone make you work on short game or consistency if that is not what makes the game fun. If being a bomber is what floats your boat, then become a bomber. Speaking as a guy that use to swing around 117, nothing is more fun than out-driving your buddies by 75 yards. I love watching them try to wail on their next drive just to reduce the embarrasment, and start throwing out neck weasels.

Another fun thing to do, is watch them hit a good one, and then say, "Wow, you tore the cover off that thing"....and then out drive them by 80.

Just remember, it's m times v, so if you want more v, then train with big m. Don't do the silly "speed drills" with light objects. That's not going to help you a bit at 105 mph.

BTW, just wait til you get some back fat. I got mine when I turned 42.
 
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Lifter

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I am green with envy that you used to swing at 117 mph. I definitely would have thrown a neck weasel with you!

Not sure exactly what the "speed drills" with light objects you're referring to are. I'm just trying to turn more and arrive at impact with my head behind the ball more.
 
Virtuoso

Virtuoso

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Lifter said:
I am green with envy that you used to swing at 117 mph. I definitely would have thrown a neck weasel with you!

Not sure exactly what the "speed drills" with light objects you're referring to are. I'm just trying to turn more and arrive at impact with my head behind the ball more.
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You want my 117 but you don't want my back fat! Come on. Actually, I'm not 117 anymore. I'm now about 112 if I stand on the mofo.

To be a bomber, you need 115 and good launch parameters. Turning more and keeping your head behind the ball is fine, but it ain't going to get you to 115. Remember: BIG M.
 
mgranato

mgranato

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Virtuoso said:
Speaking as a guy that use to swing around 117, nothing is more fun than out-driving your buddies by 75 yards.
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But there is nothing that makes you want to quit the game more than your buddies putting their 8 irons inside your wedges.
 
Virtuoso

Virtuoso

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mgranato said:
But there is nothing that makes you want to quit the game more than your buddies putting their 8 irons inside your wedges.
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That's no problem, they know I'm an instructor, so I tell them their AOA is too shallow with the 8 iron, and then they lay sod over it the rest of the day.
 
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DCgolf

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You young guns make me smile! I'm down to low to mid 90s now and grateful when my back lets me play. PERSPECTIVE...
 
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