2005 Golfing Machine Teaching Summit
- Thread starter Brian Manzella
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"as opposed to the "clubhead passing the hands soon after separation" syndrome...also know as "i'm a hacker" syndrome....."
No - as opposed to the "you don't have to keep the shaft in line with the left arm excessively far past separation" condition exhibited by the top players of today.
No - as opposed to the "you don't have to keep the shaft in line with the left arm excessively far past separation" condition exhibited by the top players of today.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Here is the deal....
I have watched Haney teach live....no eureka momenets....he is SELLING a system and for some golfers....flawed or not...it works.
I have seen Leadbetter, Smith, Hardy, Flick, etc. LIVE....same as above.
Ben teaches HIS way BECAUSE HE FEELS THAT THIS IS HIS MISSION, A MAXIMUM PARTICIPATION PATTERN with the mind driven by the ESSENCE of it all...."mind in you hands, eys correctly on the ball."
He HATES quick fix teachers...
well, except for me.
Lynn Blake is not often discussed (disected) like Ben is, but after a few years, he will.
I have seen Lynn walk up to a golfer who was hittting it ok and made a change that resulted in a shank or two, almost insantly.
So?
Lynn teaches the two patterns in the 6th and 7th editions of TGM, and he does that very well. He is not a quick fix teacher either.
But...Ben and Lynn both get results. Read the REAL LIFE reviews.
I am the ultimate GG lesson giver, the best of all-time.
GG?
GG is a student/client of mind. My BEST client. I teach his whole family, and a lot of his pals. GG's expectations of a lesson is that in a couple dozen balls, I can fix a student's problem and make them start "looking like a golfer."
I do this WITHOUT teaching throwaway or stupid grips or looking at the target at impact, etc.
I am—if I may say so myself—the best at this of all-time.
But Lynn and Ben are not going to change what they teach after watching me fix people in minutes each.
They have sometime to give—and sell. And THANK GOD for that.
They have information that, really, no one else has in the way they "have" it.
To say beacuase they don't IMMEDIATELY get results that would impress GG or you or anyone else, they are somehow, not good teachers is downright stupid.
I have learned A LOT from those guys and I was THRILLED they taught as they did.
I have watched Haney teach live....no eureka momenets....he is SELLING a system and for some golfers....flawed or not...it works.
I have seen Leadbetter, Smith, Hardy, Flick, etc. LIVE....same as above.
Ben teaches HIS way BECAUSE HE FEELS THAT THIS IS HIS MISSION, A MAXIMUM PARTICIPATION PATTERN with the mind driven by the ESSENCE of it all...."mind in you hands, eys correctly on the ball."
He HATES quick fix teachers...
well, except for me.
Lynn Blake is not often discussed (disected) like Ben is, but after a few years, he will.
I have seen Lynn walk up to a golfer who was hittting it ok and made a change that resulted in a shank or two, almost insantly.
So?
Lynn teaches the two patterns in the 6th and 7th editions of TGM, and he does that very well. He is not a quick fix teacher either.
But...Ben and Lynn both get results. Read the REAL LIFE reviews.
I am the ultimate GG lesson giver, the best of all-time.
GG?
GG is a student/client of mind. My BEST client. I teach his whole family, and a lot of his pals. GG's expectations of a lesson is that in a couple dozen balls, I can fix a student's problem and make them start "looking like a golfer."
I do this WITHOUT teaching throwaway or stupid grips or looking at the target at impact, etc.
I am—if I may say so myself—the best at this of all-time.
But Lynn and Ben are not going to change what they teach after watching me fix people in minutes each.
They have sometime to give—and sell. And THANK GOD for that.
They have information that, really, no one else has in the way they "have" it.
To say beacuase they don't IMMEDIATELY get results that would impress GG or you or anyone else, they are somehow, not good teachers is downright stupid.
I have learned A LOT from those guys and I was THRILLED they taught as they did.
birdie_man
New
Ahahahahah I love it.
Ur hilarious man.
(not being sarcastic or anything BTW....lol- seriously I'm not).
Don Shaw was a teaching pro in Seattle. He (and one other person) spent more hours with Homer then problably everyone else combined.
I was in the first class after GSEB became two part- Feb, 2004 I think - which also happened to be Lynn's introduction back into the teaching world.
All the pro's were cool, very knowledgable, etc (me being the only non pro), but...in all fairness, none of them were even close to me at the time in knowing the book or the concepts. Tom Reynolds was problably the closest. That was evidenced by a class debate Lynn and I got into regarding accumulator #3 and horizontal hinging - blank stares. Other then that, alot of crazy looks to me (like I was obsessive or something
)....so...in summary, they, I am sure, are much better teachers then me - communication, eye for flaws, etc...but as far as the book...not everyone is on a level playing field.I talked at length with Danny about Level 1 and Level 2 to obtain GSEB status. In my mind...if someone pays to go through Level 1, they should have some type of status (payoff if you will...other then the knowledge).....but...hasnt happened. I believe Joe and I also had some discussion on this.
birdie_man
New
Is it really tho? Maybe in certain ways.....cause I'm not sure about Double-Cocking, etc.....but for a Swinger, CF really is huge.
billmckinneygolf
New
Gregg has found a way to communicate both the Physics and Geometry of the stroke.
He is very hands-on. And uses something I call Proprioceptive Neuromuscular Facilitation.
whew. I've stood out there with him for hours and dang it, most of those people start making beautiful swings and just thump it. He doesn't even talk very much. It's like Freudian therapy..he just sits there and listens while people **** and then he starts tweeking. Then, bing! the lightbulb goes on.
Is this off the subject?
He is very hands-on. And uses something I call Proprioceptive Neuromuscular Facilitation.
whew. I've stood out there with him for hours and dang it, most of those people start making beautiful swings and just thump it. He doesn't even talk very much. It's like Freudian therapy..he just sits there and listens while people **** and then he starts tweeking. Then, bing! the lightbulb goes on.
Is this off the subject?
Hi Birdie....
I agree that a swinger, from a physics perspective, is primarily concerned about centrifugal force. However...G.O.L.F. is about alignments first and foremost - no doubt about that!
My point is...in either hitting or swinging, geometry takes precedence over physics according to the little yellow book, thats all. I think people can get the wrong impression from the original comment.
Hey Mj! Good point! And I agree - the geometry certainly does not explain the physics necessary to produce that geometry (something has to move something, right?). Let me clarify on my comment. I took your comment about Gregg to mean that (and I can be totally wrong!) he seems to concentrate more on physics then geometry. I am only saying that, in TGM (not saying it cant be done, etc) this would be the equivalent of pivot controlled hands versus hands controlled pivot. And again - I may have misinterpreted your comment...if thats the case, I apologize!
No sir Bill...right on line with me! Love to hear more about PMF (think I have heard about it but not sure)!!!!!!!
-Patrick/Phillgolf
"I took your comment about Gregg to mean that (and I can be totally wrong!) he seems to concentrate more on physics then geometry."
I was just quoting Bill McK - I took it to mean that Gregg found a way to get the physics to produce the geometry as an anatomical certainty. But I'm just guessing and would like to hear more about this idea.
"I am only saying that, in TGM (not saying it cant be done, etc) this would be the equivalent of pivot controlled hands versus hands controlled pivot."
Yes - that's exactly what it means in TGM.
I was just quoting Bill McK - I took it to mean that Gregg found a way to get the physics to produce the geometry as an anatomical certainty. But I'm just guessing and would like to hear more about this idea.
"I am only saying that, in TGM (not saying it cant be done, etc) this would be the equivalent of pivot controlled hands versus hands controlled pivot."
Yes - that's exactly what it means in TGM.
tongzilla
New
Yes, we agree. I have posted further comments on another thread (http://www.manzellagolfforum.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2620)
I'll copy and paste it here:
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Zone #1 (Pivot) must be mastered before Zone #3 (Hands). Zone #3 can never be better than Zone #1. So don't go "ooh, xyz is a rubbish teacher because he is always talking about pivot this and pivot that." He may merely be teaching the proper use of your Pivot before you can progress onto the Hands Zone.
The Golfing Machine is about Hand Controlled Pivot, not the other way round. Homer said the Pivot Controlled Hands procedure is so inferior that it's not even worth considering, except during transitional periods for the player.
Pivot Controlled Hands assigns to Physics precedence over Geometry -- Force dictating alignments. Which obviously reduces precision. But the Pivot may be educated to produce geometric Hand and Club alignments and relationships with some degree of precision which would definitely improve control.
In Swinging, Horizontal Hinging is naturally produced if centrifugal force remains unhampered. This is the 'physics dictating geometry' aspect some people talk about. More specifically, it's Clubface geometry. However, the Educated Hand and the Right Forearm is needed to maintain the On Plane Sweetspot and hence Clubhead and Clubshaft Geometry.
The hands are always aiming, sensing (via Pressure Points) and relaying information to and from the club. If they are educated, they dictate how the pivot should move by themselves.
Hands Controlled Pivot doesn't mean hitting the balls with your hand so the pivot doesn't do any work. The Pivot still acts as a massive rotor transfering momentum to the club. The difference is merely in what you monitor.
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Steve Khatib
Super Moderator
Tongzila,
speeking for Bill and the pros the answer is no. Or not as standard proceedure anyway.
speeking for Bill and the pros the answer is no. Or not as standard proceedure anyway.
Steve Khatib
Super Moderator
Hand controlled pivot is what we use , 10 24 F is a very risque proceedure. Auto snap release is the component variation used with a wrist throw trigger type.
Great to see you interested Tongzilla.
Great to see you interested Tongzilla.
tongzilla
New
Yes, glad we've made this point nice and clear to all those who are convinced that pivot controlled hands is better with swinging (i.e. physics taking precedence over geometry).
Yup, I like wrist throw combined with delivery path throw (cos it helps with auto aspect of release). Isn't TGM just great? (rhetorical question
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