Debate: Path or Clubface to Fix a Slice —now with Manzella MIT project data on page 6

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mjstrong

mjstrong

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Brian,
Not that it really matters since your point is clearly made, but it appears to me that some of your math is wrong in the some of the Clubface-to-Path columns...

I wouldn't worry about it unless you're publishing these findings somewhere, which may not be a bad idea at all...or maybe they already are?
 
mjstrong

mjstrong

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Correct Example:
AK (after) 10.0 inside out 1.65 closed 11.65 closed

Incorrect Example:
SB (after) 3.63 inside out 3.17 closed .46 open

The .46 open should be 6.8 closed. If the path is going inside out, and the face is closed, they are going in very different directions.

The two examples above are calculated differently.

Again, I just wanted to make him aware in case he's presenting this somewhere...
 
golfbulldog

golfbulldog

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effect of face control on angle of attack as well as HSP??

Brian, great data posted there - thanks! - and your last blog post was right up there with your best - the "reflective" written form you adopt is perhaps an even more potent version than the high energy video version IMO - kind of like whisky being more potent than beer ;) ... less fizz but more punch!

Question:
For a player who slices their drives - does clubface closure (twistaway etc) have an effect on their angle of attack as well as their HSP?? Does twistaway help players hit up on their driver?
 
B

Brian Manzella

Administrator
mjstrong said:
Correct Example:
AK (after) 10.0 inside out 1.65 closed 11.65 closed

Incorrect Example:
SB (after) 3.63 inside out 3.17 closed .46 open

The .46 open should be 6.8 closed. If the path is going inside out, and the face is closed, they are going in very different directions.

The two examples above are calculated differently.

Again, I just wanted to make him aware in case he's presenting this somewhere...
Click to expand...

Hey MJ...

How about I send you the file, you fix my math, and I'll get you a free video?
 
B

Brian Manzella

Administrator
golfbulldog said:
For a player who slices their drives - does clubface closure (twistaway etc) have an effect on their angle of attack as well as their HSP?? Does twistaway help players hit up on their driver?
Click to expand...

Well....

First of all, you have to understand how hard it was for me to JUST use twistaway.

Just as important in some cases would have been backswing hand path, or less laid off (flying wedge over rotated), etc.

For the driver, folks need to set up to the ball better, among other things.

But the Twistaway, ignored by some teachers, panned by others on the internet, is a POWERFUL thing that every good player employes somewhere in the the downswing, unless they have a VERY strong grip.

The way I teach it to someone who needs a lot of it—and that's a lot of average golfers—is talked about like it is the same thing as square-to-sqaure golf swing, or Dante's stuff, but really it isn't.

The way I teach it, and pose golfers through the swing, is a WHOLE SWING movement, with a certain left wrist/right wrist alignment, and left elbow relationship. Among other things.

That's ok though, the teacher and golfers who listen and use it correctly and when needed will benifit, and the history books will look at it fondly.

It is a WHOLE SWING movement
 
B

birly-shirly

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Brian Manzella said:
Well....

[...]
The way I teach it to someone who needs a lot of it—and that's a lot of average golfers—is talked about like it is the same thing as square-to-sqaure golf swing, or Dante's stuff, but really it isn't.

The way I teach it, and pose golfers through the swing, is a WHOLE SWING movement, with a certain left wrist/right wrist alignment, and left elbow relationship. Among other things.

That's ok though, the teacher and golfers who listen and use it correctly and when needed will benifit, and the history books will look at it fondly.

It is a WHOLE SWING movement
Click to expand...

Brian - this is one of those areas where I think explaining what you're NOT saying could be quite important to understanding your point. Could you say more about the differences between how you teach and Square to Square?

I'm not doubting your ability or methods for fixing a slicer, and I thought your GC entry was great. If anything, I'm more interested in where you thing S2S went wrong. Wasn't that MEANT to help slicers by squaring up their clubface position at the top?
 
F

finncox

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Jim Kobylinski said:
you are right, open to the path which means OPEN clubface. Where the face is pointing in relation to the target line is 100% irreverent. If those pull slicers clubfaces were actually square or shut the ball would go left.
Click to expand...

I think this is the vital piece of info that William was missing in the beginning. Maybe after his conversation with Brian, that is cleared up?
 
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wulsy

New
Not being familiar with the BMan terminology, I assume twistaway was originaly associated with the takeaway. Hence the possible assumption that it only relates to the takeaway, when it actually can be done anywhere in the swing.
 
R

rogerdodger

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Twistaway really helps at the start of the downswing. The key thought for me is to continue twistaway right thru to a wedding ring up finish. What I long thought was an underplane path issue, Brian fixed with clubface correction thru twistaway in the downswing.
 
J

Jon Hardesty

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Ok folks...here is the deal!

Clubface accounts for roughly 85% of ballflight, and path accounts for the remaining 15% of ballflight. I know this is somewhat of a general statement but why wouldn't you focus on what really affects ballflight the most. Just a thought...
 
W

wulsy

New
Bolt said:
It is not only associated with the takeaway. See the video Never Slice again or do a search on twistaway.
Click to expand...

twistaway, takeaway. Sounds similar, hence the "possible assumtion". I appreciate that it is not only associated with the takeaway.
 
R

Ringer

New
Jon Hardesty said:
Ok folks...here is the deal!

Clubface accounts for roughly 85% of ballflight, and path accounts for the remaining 15% of ballflight. I know this is somewhat of a general statement but why wouldn't you focus on what really affects ballflight the most. Just a thought...
Click to expand...

I don't think that's accurate Jon. It may account for 85% of the initial direction, but it plays a big role in spin. It's on thing to miss to the right or left, it's another to miss right and watch is slice away.

They must BOTH be fixed. It's just easier to start with the face.
 
J

Jon Hardesty

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Ringer,

dbl is right...I am merely making a blanket statement that the clubface affects ballflight the most, especially for slicers. I realize that they both affect ballflight, however when you are talking about a slicer it is the chicken or the egg syndrome. The open clubface is causing a faulty path almost every single time.

Here is an analogy: Lets say someone wants to lose weight because they have become extremely over weight. They tell you that they eat a steady diet of fast food and deserts, but they do get a little exercise by taking a walk on their lunch break. Which of the two things will effect this person losing weight the most? Should they stop eating the fast food and deserts or just take a really really long walk at lunch? Of course you would work on the diet first...yes they both matter, but one is more important than the other to gain real change. Hope this makes sense...
 
R

Rick Dandy

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Good point

Jon,
Claude Harmon could whup Butch seven days a week into his late years. The reason, he said to Butch, "I always know where the face is."
 
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