Debate: Path or Clubface to Fix a Slice —now with Manzella MIT project data on page 6

[Williamevanl]

I think this is the vital piece of info that William was missing in the beginning. Maybe after his conversation with Brian, that is cleared up?

Nope I was describing a pull slice where the face is closed to the target line but open to the path. I realize now that you guys aren't comfortable with the word target line so I can just pose this question with numbers alone.

I asked Brian what he considered a pull to be and he said -4,-4. I think I can work off that, so if someones numbers are let's say -6 degrees face and -8 path. What is their ball flight and what would you fix first? Also, what will the new numbers be (roundabout) following the first change you make. Assume driver in this example.

In this example I would expect the clubface angle to be 80-85 percent of the reason for the pull in this pull slice.

 

[Williamevanl]

Also in the trackman chart it looks like the majority of the people ended up with a pull hook. We've got closed clubface coupled with positive paths.

11 -14 degrees closed to the path? Someone help me out here.

SS, it looks like your post are on the trap still(one is locked though).

 

[dbl]

The summary line as I read it is a net change, not an absolute.

 

[natep]

It is data from an experiment in which Brian had 3 minutes to explain to them how to apply twistaway. Almost all of them ended up with paths more to the right and faces less open after the 3 minute instruction. All it illustrates is the correlation between face and path. Just look at how the paths changed after he got them to change the JUST THE FACE.

 

[Williamevanl]

Nope I was describing a pull slice where the face is closed to the target line but open to the path. I realize now that you guys aren't comfortable with the word target line so I can just pose this question with numbers alone.

I asked Brian what he considered a pull to be and he said -4,-4. I think I can work off that, so if someones numbers are let's say -6 degrees face and -8 path. What is their ball flight and what would you fix first? Also, what will the new numbers be (roundabout) following the first change you make. Assume driver in this example.

In this example I would expect the clubface angle to be 80-85 percent of the reason for the pull in this pull slice.

The summary line as I read it is a net change, not an absolute.

Nope the less open(change) numbers are even higher. One is 18.

 

[Williamevanl]

It is data from an experiment in which Brian had 3 minutes to explain to them how to apply twistaway. Almost all of them ended up with paths more to the right and faces less open after the 3 minute instruction. All it illustrates is the correlation between face and path. Just look at how the paths changed after he got them to change the JUST THE FACE.

That's interesting... Did anyone end up with a desirable ball flight?

 

[spktho]

That's interesting... Did anyone end up with a desirable ball flight?

NN & PP? You may still be taking this experiment out of context.--you're response will probably be "2 out of 9?"

 

[slicer2scratch]

SS, it looks like your post are on the trap still(one is locked though).

There are many replies that were taken down as well such as a reply to someones swing..Which I said could use more lateral shift of his hips in backswing and more arm elevation, Also about Tiger not turning his hips as much in the backswing as I requested someone to (I then stated Tiger doesnt need to turn his hips as much to acheive a full shoulder rotation).Most ams do.etc.etc. He said its poor instruction and took down my replies leaving up only his for people to see.

 

[natep]

No, but if he can change the PATH and FACE in three minutes by ONLY explaining twistaway and nothing else, what do you think he could have done with them in an hour??

The experiment was only done to show the correlation to face and path, and done in 3 minutes just to prove a point.

 

[Williamevanl]

NN & PP? You may still be taking this experiment out of context.

No it's just that my head exploded after looking at these numbers because now it looks like (following changes) all of these people would benefit from an opening of the clubface.

Anyway, can someone help with that original question?
Thanks.

 

[Williamevanl]

There are many replies that were taken down as well such as a reply to someones swing..Which I said could use more lateral shift of his hips in backswing and more arm elevation, Also about Tiger not turning his hips as much in the backswing as I requested someone to (I then stated Tiger doesnt need to turn his hips as much to acheive a full shoulder rotation).Most ams do.etc.etc. He said its poor instruction and took down my replies leaving up only his for people to see.

That's d$&(; Iacas can be kind of an jerk, smart guy though.

 

[slicer2scratch]

William these people are fixing their path on their own. Why dont you see that as significant. As I have heard you or maybe one of your forum guys say before , Its almost impossible for a slicer to swing from the inside (YEA WHEN YOU TRY TO FIX PATH FIRST.) Here is evidence of SLICERS swinging more from the inside. Im am starting to believe that no matter what is said or done you are just not going to get it.

 

[spktho]

Your original question of -6 face, -8 path, which to fix first? I for one would have to see the whole picture. This golfer is more than likely "lined up" too far right and may be able to fix it by themselves with correcting their alignment.

 

[Williamevanl]

William these people are fixing their path on their own. Why dont you see that as significant. As I have heard you or maybe one of your forum guys say before , Its almost impossible for a slicer to swing from the inside (YEA WHEN YOU TRY TO FIX PATH FIRST.) Here is evidence of SLICERS swinging more from the inside. Im am starting to believe that no matter what is said or done you are just not going to get it.

I do find it interesting, are there any videos of this, it would be cool to see the dramatic swing plane shift, are these people aligned the same as before. I think I just need to see the immediate change in swingplane and I will be convinced.

 

[Williamevanl]

Your original question of -6 face, -8 path, which to fix first? I for one would have to see the whole picture. This golfer is more than likely "lined up" too far right and may be able to fix it by themselves with correcting their alignment.

That's why I like to say target line, no in this example the person is parallel left of target. Besides, wouldn't lining up right create more of an inside out path and open clubface if they just shifted right?

 

[Brian Manzella]

I do find it interesting, are there any videos of this, it would be cool to see the dramatic swing plane shift, are these people aligned the same as before. I think I just need to see the immediate change in swingplane and I will be convinced.

After one hour of my time, which by the way people pay $150-200 an hour for, which I gave you, an amateur golfer with no real on the line teaching experience, $100,000 worth of information for free, and it still doesn't look like you get it.

I'd bet you could see it in person and NOT be convinced.

What is it that you are on this forum for?

 

[Williamevanl]

Hmm, I still don't get it which is why I'm still asking questions. As I said all it would take to convince me is a down the line before and after with some slicers.

I wasn't able to get a couple answers on the phone and I said I'd be back with those questions.

 

[spktho]

That's why I like to say target line, no in this example the person is parallel left of target. Besides, wouldn't lining up right create more of an inside out path and open clubface if they just shifted right?

I didn't offer a fix to line up right. They are probably lining up right already because they are trying to get their pull slice to go to their target. Or am I getting the Trackman numbers wrong--they have a closed club face and are swinging out to in, correct?

You are taking the "real world" out of your examples in an effort to prove whatever your point is. It has already been offered that sometimes an instructor will not have to fix an open clubface, but that is not the norm for an average slicer.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Hmm, I still don't get it which is why I'm still asking questions. As I said all it would take to convince me is a down the line before and after with some slicers.

I wasn't able to get a couple answers on the phone and I said I'd be back with those questions.

I'd be happy to answer anymore questions you have on a taped conversation on UStream. I had sooooooo many nuggets in our talk and wish I had the ability to share them with the forum members.

 

[Brian Manzella]

and....

if you want to see me teach live, you can come to the next GTE, which will be announced soon.