I'm sure Tiger wanted Stricker. And Re Furyk, I'm sure that DLIII felt that he had to add more experience to his team. So now we've learned that that idea is fatally flawed. It's probably better to send a total novice out there than a veteran with a poor record and lots of scar tissue. Hate to say it, but they might be damaged goods to some degree.
Ryder Cup
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I'm sure Tiger wanted Stricker. And Re Furyk, I'm sure that DLIII felt that he had to add more experience to his team. So now we've learned that that idea is fatally flawed. It's probably better to send a total novice out there than a veteran with a poor record and lots of scar tissue. Hate to say it, but they might be damaged goods to some degree.
faux_maestro
New
Damaged goods for sure. We have about 2 generations of American golfers that know nothing but utter defeat in this thing. The only match we won? The one without Eldrick and a whole bunch of young guys with Zinger as out captain.
I think this really is the main big-picture reason why the European team won.
faux_maestro
New
And I'm positive Tiger wanted Stricker but what had he done this year? Doesn't seem to me like much. This is just so damned frustrating as an American to see this happen.
You know what? I'm an American and I was rooting for our side big-time. But still, I'd rather see the Europeans win by a hair than see the U.S. win in a blow-out. It's just so much more exciting that way! I couldn't believe how sweaty my palms were. I feel privileged that I got to see such a thrilling event live.
And at the end of the day, it's just golf. The U.S. team might have blown it today but I'm sure that their opponents still have a lot of respect for them.
It's a lot more painful to see the U.S. lose in a blow-out than to see this, that's for sure. I'm not so much bitter as just excited for the next one.
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
1st...George is probably my favorite comedian of all time, may be rest in..oh wait he wouldn't care or believe
2nd...the irony in posting this is if you have ever seen this stand up he did (it was the last of his career before he passed) his opening line few lines are very funny since they come pre "iron gate."
3rd...Tiger is 4-1-1 before today in singles, why wouldn't he want to go out there immediately and get a point? You can't control what 11 other guys are going to do to determine if your point that you should get is going to count. It's as idiotic as too many MLB managers bunting and stealing too much, you're literally giving up the only thing you can control; OUTS.
1st...George is probably my favorite comedian of all time, may be rest in..oh wait he wouldn't care or believe
2nd...the irony in posting this is if you have ever seen this stand up he did (it was the last of his career before he passed) his opening line few lines are very funny since they come pre "iron gate."
3rd...Tiger is 4-1-1 before today in singles, why wouldn't he want to go out there immediately and get a point? You can't control what 11 other guys are going to do to determine if your point that you should get is going to count. It's as idiotic as too many MLB managers bunting and stealing too much, you're literally giving up the only thing you can control; OUTS.
Could it be that Hunter Mahan loomed large in DLIII's thinking? I forget where I heard it, but someone in golf said that the captain wants to put an accomplished veteran (i.e. Hale Irwin) in the anchor match. Because if he's responsible for the last losing point, then that won't define his career.
I guess that's not something that a good captain should worry about. He should just front-load his lineup with his best players. If you sign up to play for the Ryder Cup then you signed up. The possibility that you could end up being the sacrificial lamb losing point comes with the territory. Doesn't matter whether or not you're an accomplished veteran.
faux_maestro
New
1st...George is probably my favorite comedian of all time, may be rest in..oh wait he wouldn't care or believe
2nd...the irony in posting this is if you have ever seen this stand up he did (it was the last of his career before he passed) his opening line few lines are very funny since they come pre "iron gate."
3rd...Tiger is 4-1-1 before today in singles, why wouldn't he want to go out there immediately and get a point? You can't control what 11 other guys are going to do to determine if your point that you should get is going to count. It's as idiotic as too many MLB managers bunting and stealing too much, you're literally giving up the only thing you can control; OUTS.
LOVE Carlin. Saw him in 2004 I think in Vegas right before he taped an HBO special. I agree with you and others who have posted about Tiger not going out earlier. If the USA wins one more early match maybe they don't start to pucker so hard at the end. At the same time the lineup can be such a crap shoot that it isn't the end all of what happened. From my vantage point we just looked so damned tight, didn't play with any joy or enthusiasm, played to hang on not to go put our collective boot on their neck.
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
Oh i agree, Tiger isn't guaranteed a point but you have to go with his history...crappy in team play and great in singles. Why not just go and try and get that point? It's almost like DLIII was setting it up not to lose instead of going out there and trying to win it.
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
The big guns on the Euro team still cant win a major and that's really the only thing that matters. They can win an exhibition but Donald, Poulter and Garcia can't get it done in the real big ones.
birly-shirly
New
Ach - that's a wee bit harsh. From 4 points back, you could have made the case that Europe wasn't going to win without going to the very last matches. Big guns up front made obvious sense for Ollie - but I was still a little worried at the prospect of the match hanging on Kaymer and Molinari.
If you'd known that the 12th match was going to matter - who else would you want in that spot for the USA than its most experienced, highest ranked player?
birly-shirly
New
That's right. Nothing to see here. Now move along...
[And don't forget "strength in depth"...]
mgranato
New
If Europe was going to win, they would need to get points quickly and often, and then they would need a couple late. But the late ones wouldn't matter without an early and successful charge. No question, Ollie needed points from some unlikely sources.
If I'd had known the 12 match would matter, I'd want the player playing the best to be in that spot. The chances of 12 mattering were slim at best given the circumstances, and I would hope that my most experienced and highest rank player would not ask to be in a likely irrelevant spot.
In a team dynamic, the one thing that gets my goat is when a so called leader checks out. Not that they don't perform well, no one does all the time, but that they don't put themselves in a position to make a difference. If a guy sitting on a couch can see it, what do you think the guys sitting in the team room can see. When your top player wants to be away from the action, it absolutely has an effect on the guys looking up to and counting on him.
This is an exhibition and doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things, but it is a telling insight on where someone is mentally and what they think about their own game.
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I think putting your best players last would have been the obvious choice for Love. He knew that Europe had to send out their best players up front to get something going. That also means the players Ollie couldn't rely on would go out last. If you send out your best players against their (our from my point of view) worst players it is very likely that they trash them, you only need 4.5 points after all ...
birly-shirly
New
MGranato - I completely see what you're saying - but still see at least 2 sides to the coin....
There can't be a more pressured situation than last game out, coming down the last, with the game hanging in the balance. If you were American, then you'd hope that game was irrelevant. But if that game's going to mean something, then you already know that it's gone tits up for the rest of the team and momentum is NOT your friend. That's not an unreasonable place to want to have Tiger.
For what it's worth, I do see that scenario kind of appealing to a rock star ego - not just as an abdication of responsibility.
You also have to ask - if Davis had put Tiger higher up the order, that's a big scalp to hand the Euros if he bombs (again). The Euros probably take more out of beating Tiger than USA gets out of any matches that he wins.
Lastly, to be fair (but not generous) I don't think Tiger's ever even pretended to a leadership role in terms of team dynamic. The best he's been able to say is that he might contribute points - but that's not really happened either.
Q: Will Tiger ever captain a Ryder Cup team?
There can't be a more pressured situation than last game out, coming down the last, with the game hanging in the balance. If you were American, then you'd hope that game was irrelevant. But if that game's going to mean something, then you already know that it's gone tits up for the rest of the team and momentum is NOT your friend. That's not an unreasonable place to want to have Tiger.
For what it's worth, I do see that scenario kind of appealing to a rock star ego - not just as an abdication of responsibility.
You also have to ask - if Davis had put Tiger higher up the order, that's a big scalp to hand the Euros if he bombs (again). The Euros probably take more out of beating Tiger than USA gets out of any matches that he wins.
Lastly, to be fair (but not generous) I don't think Tiger's ever even pretended to a leadership role in terms of team dynamic. The best he's been able to say is that he might contribute points - but that's not really happened either.
Q: Will Tiger ever captain a Ryder Cup team?
Jared Willerson
Super Moderator
The Ryder Cup and The Masters are the two best events in golf. This edition was really enjoyable to watch, I thought Davis going with experience in his picks came back to bite him in the end. Stricker was awful all week and Furyk and Snedeker weren't much better.
The US needs an adjustment in strategy and I find it strange that no captain since Azinger won in '08 has bothered to consult with him to maybe see what he did.
Woods, Mickelson, Furyk and Stricker should bow out of this thing going forward. Career losers in this event that do not help our side win at all.
JMO front loaded, so did Torrance, Woosnam and Monty. The only one who didn't (Faldo) lost. The Americans still haven't caught on...after an entire decade of getting a front load ass whipping. It's almost funny, if it weren't so sad, that we are unable to catch on to a simple strategy that the Euros use EVERY TIME.
The US needs an adjustment in strategy and I find it strange that no captain since Azinger won in '08 has bothered to consult with him to maybe see what he did.
Woods, Mickelson, Furyk and Stricker should bow out of this thing going forward. Career losers in this event that do not help our side win at all.
JMO front loaded, so did Torrance, Woosnam and Monty. The only one who didn't (Faldo) lost. The Americans still haven't caught on...after an entire decade of getting a front load ass whipping. It's almost funny, if it weren't so sad, that we are unable to catch on to a simple strategy that the Euros use EVERY TIME.
birly-shirly
New
If I were American, I'd try to find some positives. I really don't know if the captains can do much to affect the result of the singles. The "brilliant sally" of Torrance, Woosnam and Monty in front-loading the draw always seemed a bit suspect to me. Fine if it works - not so clever if your tail end collapses.
On the other hand - I think captain's picks and pairings really do matter, and so does the ability to foster some team spirit. No surprise that Faldo bombed then - and I don't put it down to his singles order.
Yeah - I think your captain's picks looked a bit sketchy - but someone's got to play with Tiger, right? And I don't think he's the type to chaperone a rookie.
I know you can't win the match on the first 2 days - but I do think the singles will always be a bit of a lottery. The team spirit comes out in the first 2 days - and, until this year, that's been where Europe has traditionally looked stronger.
On the other hand - I think captain's picks and pairings really do matter, and so does the ability to foster some team spirit. No surprise that Faldo bombed then - and I don't put it down to his singles order.
Yeah - I think your captain's picks looked a bit sketchy - but someone's got to play with Tiger, right? And I don't think he's the type to chaperone a rookie.
I know you can't win the match on the first 2 days - but I do think the singles will always be a bit of a lottery. The team spirit comes out in the first 2 days - and, until this year, that's been where Europe has traditionally looked stronger.
Lindsey Newman
New
USA lost in brutal fashion. They/we deserved it. There is no "secret" whether it's "pods" or any other of those crap theories. When you continually see putts lose speed and break out of the hole it is a sure sign of fear, pressure and choking. We choked....clearly
Jared Willerson
Super Moderator
Azinger must have done something right, and I'm not talking about those silly "PODS", he kept them loose and inspired in them the ability to play without fear.
Lindsey is right, we choked. Played defensively all day rather than having a "step on necks" type attitude. Something had to be wrong in what was said before they went out. Kind of like that caddie in those McGladdery commercials with Davis, "everything can go wrong, be sure that it doesn't". Not the best way to rally the team to do what you need them to do.
Being a coach/captain is not easy, you have to know your team and understand what motivates them. You have to give them confidence that they can overcome their weaknesses and play to their strengths. It is a special coach that can do that.
Lindsey is right, we choked. Played defensively all day rather than having a "step on necks" type attitude. Something had to be wrong in what was said before they went out. Kind of like that caddie in those McGladdery commercials with Davis, "everything can go wrong, be sure that it doesn't". Not the best way to rally the team to do what you need them to do.
Being a coach/captain is not easy, you have to know your team and understand what motivates them. You have to give them confidence that they can overcome their weaknesses and play to their strengths. It is a special coach that can do that.
Lindsey Newman
New
I respectfully disagree. I believe the Ryder Cup does matter as much as majors for one reason: TEAM.
I rarely see as much emotion at a major as I do in a Ryder Cup which signifies "meaning" to me.
It's not an exhibition, it's a fight and at its roots it's "we are better than you".
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