The "Pull Back," The "Run Up," and The "Jump"

[niblick1]

I know how you feel. My old swing thought was "pivot, left shoulder up and back". My current swing thought to avoid making the "photo 2 to photo 5" move is "pivot, left shoulder back". By "back" I mean, away from the ball. I think it gets me to transition through a "photo 4" position rather than going straight to "photo 5". I was worried about not getting enough axis tilt without the "left shoulder up" thought, but I suspect that my left shoulder is still "up" enough because the results have been good. Just a suggestion that worked for me.

I don't quite follow what you mean by "left shoulder back" - in backswing? - helping fix tendency to go from photo 2 to photo 5 - ??

Wait, you mean that you just have to think about not moving the left shoulder up and back immediately after finishing backswing? That makes sense. That's what I try to do but have trouble moving forward with those more closed shoulders.

I definitely have been thinking "pivot, then left shoulder up and back immediately" for a while.

 

[golfie]

Late tilting

I see a couple of late axis tilters here-- just like Sergio. If Jamie did not move that shoulder way up and so fast, he would bounce his driver 18 inches behind the ball.

How can you train yourself to tilt so late (thereby conserving lag) and then jump?

 

[Shot Limit]

I would like to see these images with iron in hand.

 

[The BC VIP]

I don't quite follow what you mean by "left shoulder back" - in backswing? - helping fix tendency to go from photo 2 to photo 5 - ??

Wait, you mean that you just have to think about not moving the left shoulder up and back immediately after finishing backswing? That makes sense. That's what I try to do but have trouble moving forward with those more closed shoulders.

I definitely have been thinking "pivot, then left shoulder up and back immediately" for a while.

Sorry, I meant that after I pivot and get the left shoulder over the right foot in the backswing, my first thought for the downswing is to get the left shoulder as far away from the ball as possible (what I was referring to as "left shoulder back") and not focus so much on the "left shoulder up".

 

[JeffM]

Brian - I don't know what point you are trying to make with this thread.

I think that you need to also plot the movement of the upper swing center (situated midway between the shoulder sockets). I think that you will clearly see that Mike Finney's upper swing center does not bob up-and-down during his downswing (although it may move about 1-2" from side-to-side).

Here is a photo series showing the movement of the upper swing center (blue dot) in Aaron Baddeleys swing.

Here is a phot series showing the movement of the upper swing center in Stuart Appleby's swing.

Jeff.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Brian - I don't know what point you are trying to make with this thread.

Really?

You don't know the point of this thread?

Here is the point:

NEVER IN THE HISTORY OF GOLF INSTRUCTION, has anyone written in a book, that the left shoulder should be LOWER THAN IT WAS ADDRESS, when it returns to the vertical line it started on.

If they have, they have snuck it by me....and apparently you.

Also, no one TALKS ABOUT how the radius need to be IN THE GROUND SIGNIFICANTLY around release point, and then YANKED out of the ground by "the JUMP."

And...NEVER IN THE HISTORY OF GOLF INSTRUCTION, has anyone written that you need about three times as much forward lean as DOWNWARD STRIKE with an iron, and how to do it.

THIS IS HOW YOU DO IT!!!

To me—in the world I live and teach everyday in—this is a REALLY BIG deal.

And, as sure a Gawd made little green apples, you will challenge me on it, and I will smarten you up, and you will not thank me properly, nor give me the credit I deserve when you take your upgraded knowledge with you.

But, at least it'lll be fun.

 

[lookingtolearn]

This is really cool stuff

Really?

You don't know the point of this thread?

Here is the point:

NEVER IN THE HISTORY OF GOLF INSTRUCTION, has anyone written in a book, that the left shoulder should be LOWER THAN IT WAS ADDRESS, when it returns to the vertical line it started on.

If they have, they have snuck it by me....and apparently you.

Also, no one TALKS ABOUT how the radius need to be IN THE GROUND SIGNIFICANTLY around release point, and then YANKED out of the ground by "the JUMP."

And...NEVER IN THE HISTORY OF GOLF INSTRUCTION, has anyone written that you need about three times as much forward lean as DOWNWARD STRIKE with an iron, and how to do it.

THIS IS HOW YOU DO IT!!!

To me—in the world I live and teach everyday in—this is a REALLY BIG deal.

And, as sure a Gawd made little green apples, you will challenge me on it, and I will smarten you up, and you will not thank me properly, nor give me the credit I deserve when you take your upgraded knowledge with you.

But, at least it'lll be fun.

Brian,

Do you think that most people can do these moves, or are they only reserved for certain patterns?

 

[Brian Manzella]

Brian,

Do you think that most people can do these moves, or are they only reserved for certain patterns?

I think everyone need to do SOME OF IT....but the big deal is how many good players ALREADY DO IT.

 

[drulf]

TDO 2.0 ?

Isn´t this just a more refined way of expressing what you do when you throw the drunk off?
You have to go low and have front foot support to make a good throwoff..."dive" into the front leg with your target shoulder...jump up
...but how do you teach us 97% with limited gifts to put the front shoulder this low in the DS without diving the whole aging hacking machine...hmm I´ll have a lot of right arm if I´m not a-gonna duff it...
This is a pivot project worthy of an entire arctic summer...

 

[Brian Manzella]

It is....and it isn't...

Isn´t this just a more refined way of expressing what you do when you throw the drunk off?

You have to go low and have front foot support to make a good throwoff..."dive" into the front leg with your target shoulder...jump up

No doubt about it.

But NO ONE HAD the shoulder thing included, or if they did, they forgot how important the RUN UP was.

.

..but how do you teach us 97% with limited gifts to put the front shoulder this low in the DS without diving the whole aging hacking machine...

I am already teaching it.

No problem to include new stuff when you aren't tethered to a METHOD.

 

[dsmith2296]

For what it is worth, here is the full speed swing. He only weighed 37 pounds and was hitting 60-75 yards.- pound for pound, not bad.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FS3rCeioG8A[/media]

 

[savydan]

I get the pull back. I get the jump. The thing I can't seem to get close to doing right is the "run up." How do you get frame 4, back to left side, with your shoulders still closed, lots of squat, and lots of room left to rotate your shoulders and jump/snap into the ball? Sergio Garcia does the same thing. Gets to frame 4, shoulders still closed.

I feel like I try to go immediately from photo 2 to photo 5. Why such a weak transition? arghhhhhhhh.....

I think the key is what Canadian Pro is talking about with the weight in post #9.

You perform the transition with the majority of your weight still in the right leg.

 

[multi]

Wow, several days ago I figured out I could hit it better if I squat then "jump" off bringing the left shoulder up/back. I have in my mind Tiger's squat when I do this, but it still feels really weird as it doesn't seem as smooth and my arms aren't used to the delay. I always remembered Tiger saying that his squat is a bad thing though, good to know that it's not!

 

[savydan]

Tiger's been squating for years - it's hard to imagine that he would call that a bad thing.

He's not one to say he's been doing something wrong for several years.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Brian and I observed a few things in Pittsburgh that were eye openers. Especially how much more lean the downward hit you nead. A few students got unreal results with the whole movement. Pretty cool stuff.

 

[pecky987]

it seems to me that this is associated with people who need a "no-tilt-till-after-sit-down" type pivot, like mike finney and sadlowski. some people who add tilt earlier in the swing, i dont think, needs checking, have their left shoulder that low at that point in the DS.

like i say, this is my initial reaction, needs to be checked on various swings before i know for sure

 

[golfbulldog]

Really?


NEVER IN THE HISTORY OF GOLF INSTRUCTION, has anyone written in a book, that the left shoulder should be LOWER THAN IT WAS ADDRESS, when it returns to the vertical line it started on.

Maybe not written that it should be lower than at address...but people have said that it should move "level left" from its position at the end of backswing (ie.lower than the address position) - no?

eg. John Schlee in "Maximum Golf":

Page 73 "7. Your left knee, hip and shoulder go level left..." when describing the move from the top of the backswing.

What Schlee did not stress was the upwards shoulder move which is then needed... but then he weren't no Italian Nice graphics!

Interesting that When Hogan did the Slow-motion practice drill he never did the "level left move"...just did a "big drunk off back move" straight from end of backswing...but he did a "level left" in real life

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIh9NFTGw0Q[/media]

 

[joep]

What is the pullback? Is it taking the club back? Could someone explain in detail how this swing works.....

 

[fronesis]

Originally Posted by niblick1 View Post
I get the pull back. I get the jump. The thing I can't seem to get close to doing right is the "run up." How do you get frame 4, back to left side, with your shoulders still closed, lots of squat, and lots of room left to rotate your shoulders and jump/snap into the ball? Sergio Garcia does the same thing. Gets to frame 4, shoulders still closed.

I feel like I try to go immediately from photo 2 to photo 5. Why such a weak transition? arghhhhhhhh.....

I think the key is what Canadian Pro is talking about with the weight in post #9.

You perform the transition with the majority of your weight still in the right leg.

I agree.

And I have one other thought, which might just prove to be overly simplistic. I think really good players get to frame 4, at least partially, for one very simple reason: they are hitting it hard. If you really fire your hips and go after the ball, then you will be moving the left side forward and down a bit. Then, before impact, a good player has to "stay behind it" and come up (the jump). Players without all that talent, who are trying to make proper movements, will often make a good bacskswing and then immediately get to frame 5. But you can't go straight frame 5 if part of your swing thought is "hit it hard."

 

[pecky987]

this is brett wetterich. PGATOUR.com - SwingPlex - Home of Slow Motion Player Swings

if you put your mouse pointer on bretts left shoulder at address, you'll see his shoulder passess through pretty much the exact spot in the downswing.

this could be because of an odd set-up. dont really know yet

also, see chad campbell. his shoulder is much higher when it returns to the line it was at address.