The "Pull Back," The "Run Up," and The "Jump"

[ggsjpc]

I'm having a hard time putting into words what I want to say. On the one hand this seems so "of course" that I'm not sure I'm understanding. I mean if something goes in a circle it will look from face on to go right until it has to go left. Just good ole pivoting stuff, especially with the torso.

On the other hand, if it seems so of course, why wouldn't it be discussed more by more people.

If someone is going to get their left shoulder further away from the ball than it was at address and further away from the ball if the arm and club were striaght wouldn't they need a little squat to hit the ball?

I must be missing something. Than obviously they couldn't get their left shoulder as far away on a downward hit vs an upward hit.

 

[bcoak]

Sorry, but I really do not understand what you are showing. Definitions?

 

[Shot Limit]

I'm having a hard time putting into words what I want to say. On the one hand this seems so "of course" that I'm not sure I'm understanding. I mean if something goes in a circle it will look from face on to go right until it has to go left. Just good ole pivoting stuff, especially with the torso.

On the other hand, if it seems so of course, why wouldn't it be discussed more by more people.

If someone is going to get their left shoulder further away from the ball than it was at address and further away from the ball if the arm and club were striaght wouldn't they need a little squat to hit the ball?

I must be missing something. Than obviously they couldn't get their left shoulder as far away on a downward hit vs an upward hit.

The right shoulder is also going down further than it was at adress.

 

[Erik_K]

Is there going to be a video to explaining all this? Looks like some great information to share here .

Yup.

Need brian to write an article or produce a video on these concepts.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Some quick answers...

Wow, several days ago I figured out I could hit it better if I squat then "jump" off bringing the left shoulder up/back. I have in my mind Tiger's squat when I do this, but it still feels really weird as it doesn't seem as smooth and my arms aren't used to the delay. I always remembered Tiger saying that his squat is a bad thing though, good to know that it's not!

It is a MAJOR source of his power.

Not just because of the FORCE it adds to the left shoulder, and the whole "one segment pushing off of another segment kinetic chain" stuff, but PRECISELY BECAUSE the golfer SWING RADIUS is way in the ground, and then the "hula-hoop" is YANKED out of the ground.

It makes that "geometry of the circle" TGM drawing look like stick men to an MRI.

it seems to me that this is associated with people who need a "no-tilt-till-after-sit-down" type pivot, like mike finney and sadlowski. some people who add tilt earlier in the swing, i dont think, needs checking, have their left shoulder that low at that point in the DS.

No doubt.

But those "don't need it" types, may be "just never been taught it" folks.

Maybe not written that it should be lower than at address...but people have said that it should move "level left" from its position at the end of backswing (ie.lower than the address position) - no?

eg. John Schlee in "Maximum Golf":

Page 73 "7. Your left knee, hip and shoulder go level left..." when describing the move from the top of the backswing.

He knew some stuff.

So did others....but why hasn't it been talked about more?

What Schlee did not stress was the upwards shoulder move which is then needed.

Lots of good ideas that don't "make it," were missing one key point.

Interesting that When Hogan did the Slow-motion practice drill he never did the "level left move"...just did a "big drunk off back move" straight from end of backswing...but he did a "level left" in real life

EXACTLY!!!

What is the pullback? Is it taking the club back? Could someone explain in detail how this swing works.....

"Pull Back" is the amount the left shoulder, left hip, and left knee MOVE AWAY from address.

Like Happy Gilmore's distance from the ball before his "Run Up.

So, the "Run Up" is the move FROM the "Pull Back"....and how CLOSE it gets to the left foot, and how far the radius is temporarily buried ion the ground, along with the FORCE of the "Run Up."

The "Jump" is how far you can get the left shoulder, left hip, and left knee to MOVE AWAY the end of the "Run Up." Plus, how fast and how hard it goes. And how SHORT the radius gets.

Mandrin was trying to tell us this not long ago.

this is brett wetterich. PGATOUR.com - SwingPlex - Home of Slow Motion Player Swings

if you put your mouse pointer on bretts left shoulder at address, you'll see his shoulder passess through pretty much the exact spot in the downswing.

this could be because of an odd set-up. dont really know yet

also, see chad campbell. his shoulder is much higher when it returns to the line it was at address.

Brian Manzella hasn't done it either.

But, I a'int winning any long-drive contests, or TOUR events either.

It might not be universal in the HALL-o-FAME, but it is the GREAT majority.

I'm having a hard time putting into words what I want to say. On the one hand this seems so "of course" that I'm not sure I'm understanding. I mean if something goes in a circle it will look from face on to go right until it has to go left. Just good ole pivoting stuff, especially with the torso.

On the other hand, if it seems so of course, why wouldn't it be discussed more by more people.

Like the D-Plane, and the Plane Line vs. True Path???

If someone is going to get their left shoulder further away from the ball than it was at address and further away from the ball if the arm and club were striaght wouldn't they need a little squat to hit the ball?

You'd think....

I must be missing something. Than obviously they couldn't get their left shoulder as far away on a downward hit vs an upward hit.

You might be surprised.

Sorry, but I really do not understand what you are showing. Definitions?

The right shoulder is also going down further than it was at adress.

See above.

It a'int in any book.

Yup.

Need brian to write an article or produce a video on these concepts.

Always working on it.

 

[vjcapron]

Really?

You don't know the point of this thread?

Here is the point:

NEVER IN THE HISTORY OF GOLF INSTRUCTION, has anyone written in a book, that the left shoulder should be LOWER THAN IT WAS ADDRESS, when it returns to the vertical line it started on.

If they have, they have snuck it by me....and apparently you.

Also, no one TALKS ABOUT how the radius need to be IN THE GROUND SIGNIFICANTLY around release point, and then YANKED out of the ground by "the JUMP."

And...NEVER IN THE HISTORY OF GOLF INSTRUCTION, has anyone written that you need about three times as much forward lean as DOWNWARD STRIKE with an iron, and how to do it.

THIS IS HOW YOU DO IT!!!

To me—in the world I live and teach everyday in—this is a REALLY BIG deal.

And, as sure a Gawd made little green apples, you will challenge me on it, and I will smarten you up, and you will not thank me properly, nor give me the credit I deserve when you take your upgraded knowledge with you.

But, at least it'lll be fun.

I haven't been posting much in the last year or two, but have been lurking. This post by BM cracks me up and is a good example of why I will keep returning to this site.

 

[Burner]

Maybe not written that it should be lower than at address...but people have said that it should move "level left" from its position at the end of backswing (ie.lower than the address position) - no?

eg. John Schlee in "Maximum Golf":

Page 73 "7. Your left knee, hip and shoulder go level left..." when describing the move from the top of the backswing.

What Schlee did not stress was the upwards shoulder move which is then needed... but then he weren't no Italian Nice graphics!

Interesting that When Hogan did the Slow-motion practice drill he never did the "level left move"...just did a "big drunk off back move" straight from end of backswing...but he did a "level left" in real life
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIh9NFTGw0Q[/media]

Watching that clip it appears to me that Mr Hogan's left shoulder is lower than his right at the end of the back swing.

On the down swing his left shoulder rises to level (and beyond) as the right shoulder begins its move, then continues, down plane.

 

[dashfan87]

All I want to say is, this is all very interesting, and Brian has done a great job explaining it all and weeding through the questions, again bravo Brian on some priceless information.

Micah.

 

[jeffgladchun]

Brian = the man

 

[Brian Manzella]

Bobby Clampett did it!

 

[Brian Manzella]

Ben Hogan!!! ...he did it too!

 

[DOCW3]

This sequence was taken from a Hogan swing seen numerous times but even with the colored dots for the purpose here, how inspiring it is. Good to see the #2 position shown.

 

[mitchdoc]

I do it too the runup that is but sometimes i go right past the ball and hit these mighty blocks right. How does on get to the jump up and let the club release in proper timing.
Seems if the runup goes to hard or long one goes right past where one should jump up.

Any drills or thoughts on that?

 

[mitchdoc]

Thinking bout it some more sometime when I do do it right I have the feeling my left side is being torn away from right towards the target leaving the right side behindat somepoint since my right side is not going targetward also it anchors me and causes me to pull up or do the jump. I have to feel like my head stays put or I do get ahead of it.

 

[Matt 4-L]

I have been working on my pivot as of late and it has lots of these elements in them; the biggest key for me is not straightening my left knee too early. If you look at the pics BM has posted you notice they all have a flexed left knee well into the downswing. They shift there weight back and start opening the hips before any left leg straightening happens. I think were alot of guys run into problems is the straightening of the left leg before or at the start of the hip turn which moves the left shoulder up to early.

 

[dsmith2296]

Brian,

Anderson's first move from Frame 1 into Frame 2 is not a good thing though is it? The REAL golfers don't stand up out of posture before they go into the 'squat.' - so should I try to teach him not to do that- or should I just shut up and let him hit balls?

 

[puttmad]

Guys,

I think maybe you are focussing too much on the left shoulder here, when in fact its position is a result of other things going on..
With all the "good" golfers' swing sequences here, the left shoulder position is basically a natural result of 1) a stable swing center, and 2) correct sequencing, i.e. leading the downswing from the ground up...
Take Hogans sequence above, note fig. 3 & 4. Note the arm position relative to the chest...in fig 3 the arms have hardly moved from theie top" position, with only the slight straightening of the right elbow causing the change in relationship of arms to the chest..
Also note Hogans right shoulder in fig 3...it is still compressed slightly towards the backbone (shoulder blade adduction)...wheereas in figure 4 the right shoulder blade is fully extended (abducted)....

With this shoulder movement on the right side AND the swing center staying stable, the left shoulder has no choice but to extend (upwards) further from the ball and higher than it was at address....

Regarding "keeping the left shoulder lower on the downswing" it happens naturally if your sequencing is correct.i.e. drive your lower pivot and allow your shoulders to follow, whilst maintaining the swing center.... the "standing up" portion also happens quite naturally if your right shoulder keeps driving around to the finish...also keeping the weight on the ball of the big toe of the left foot, rather than too early on the heel helps too (after all, try jumping up off your heels...)...

 

[Brian Manzella]

Guys,

I think maybe you are focussing too much on the left shoulder here, when in fact its position is a result of other things going on..
With all the "good" golfers' swing sequences here, the left shoulder position is basically a natural result of 1) a stable swing center, and 2) correct sequencing, i.e. leading the downswing from the ground up...
Take Hogans sequence above, note fig. 3 & 4. Note the arm position relative to the chest...in fig 3 the arms have hardly moved from theie top" position, with only the slight straightening of the right elbow causing the change in relationship of arms to the chest..
Also note Hogans right shoulder in fig 3...it is still compressed slightly towards the backbone (shoulder blade adduction)...wheereas in figure 4 the right shoulder blade is fully extended (abducted)....

With this shoulder movement on the right side AND the swing center staying stable, the left shoulder has no choice but to extend (upwards) further from the ball and higher than it was at address....

Regarding "keeping the left shoulder lower on the downswing" it happens naturally if your sequencing is correct.i.e. drive your lower pivot and allow your shoulders to follow, whilst maintaining the swing center.... the "standing up" portion also happens quite naturally if your right shoulder keeps driving around to the finish...also keeping the weight on the ball of the big toe of the left foot, rather than too early on the heel helps too (after all, try jumping up off your heels...)...

I completely disagree.

It WILL NOT "just happen" in most golf swings.

No way.

 

[cmartingolf]

Brian,

Are you seeing any differences with iron swing? Or, is this trait there too?

 

[Brian Manzella]

Brian,

Are you seeing any differences with iron swing? Or, is this trait there too?

I have taught the move to several golfers, and the results are startling!

I can do it pretty good with a 7-iron, and will post it up soon.