The Release w/Brian Manzella & Michael Jacobs

[Brian Manzella]

Is COFF2 necessary? Reading this thread, I'd have thought "Confessions of a Former COFF-er" would be more apt...

Besides, I thought (and accept, BTW) that teaching people to square the face properly more or less did away with any flipping.

Well, basically, the video needs updating, and well, basically, I have a lot more to confess.

 

[Lindsey Newman]

NICE ANSWER LINDSEY....BUT..WHAT DID JONES SAY..."BEGINS" THE DOWNSWING...... eg. what..moves first.....DIRECTION IS THERE....BUT 'HOW"

thankx

I was not giving an answer, but Jones wrote that he was always focused on a lateral then rotary movement of the left hip and his right elbow returning to his side.

 

[Jwat]

Brian, if you were to turn the right hip faster and harder on the DS, would that allow for more width to be created in the DS? And vice versa, the more you don't turn your right hip or axis tilt back (underplaner), the less width you can have?

 

[birly-shirly]

@Brian

Cool. I guess you'd be mad not to. If this isn't the longest thread on this site, it must be the fastest growing that I've ever been around for.

Obviously, I have no idea of what else you need to get off your chest - but I would love to see flipping, AoA and shaft lean given the Matrix treatment. Do you think you could deal in one video with how to control each factor and move it in either direction?

 

[ZAP]

This thread is really an indicator of how good this site is. Who knew a couple of years ago we would even be having this discussion? Some of the things Brian and MJ are talking about make me wonder why I never thought of them. I guess all the years of reading magazines really does cloud your vision.

 

[Svenster]

One heck of an interesting thread I must say.

Speaking as a hacker who has yet to come close to becoming a better hacker, one of the main things I'm taking away from this discussion is that when I next get to the range I'll be concentrating a lot more on my shoulders/arms/hands in backswing to downswing mode than what passes for my pivot. I figure that keeping the "away from the target" beginning of the downswing and hands "up and in" near/at impact might, just might, make the proper pivot to line it all up something that comes naturally, rather than a conscious endeavor.

As a bonus, by becoming more shoulder/arm/hand-centric I'm thinking it'll be easier to increase my swing speed, with the prize being more distance.

Does anyone think I'm on the right track or have I completely lost the plot?

Thanks.

 

[Lindsey Newman]

Well, basically, the video needs updating, and well, basically, I have a lot more to confess.

The finest of teachers are always open to learning and are acceptant of change. You are certainly a fine teacher.

 

[KGlennCole]

Never Mind. - Rosanna Dana

 

[bcoak]

That is as useful as aglass of water for a drowning man

Here's where I'm at in my self-discovery.........An object, like a clubhead, or a point on the grip, which is swung in a circular arc, will reach its lowest point when it lines up its center of rotation. If the hands are swung STRICTLY by torso rotation, the they will reach their lowest point when they line up with the upper sternum on the plane of the hand swing, because that's the center of the torso rotation. And great players are leading the club into impact mostly with torso rotation, and perhaps minimal forward left arm swing from the left shoulder joint, explaining why the lowest point of the hand arc is being found to be in-line with a point that is near the upper sternum. IF their was no bending of the left wrist approaching impact, then the clubhead would reach ITS lowest point when it also lined up with the center of the system which was rotating it. This would be at the same in-line point as the bottom of the hand arc, but by the time the clubhead reaches that point, the hands will be well past that point and on their way up, assuming that the clubhead is properly behing the hands. BUT, and this is a BIG BUT, the clubshaft is ALWAYS unhinging from the left arm approaching impact. The Conservation of Angular Momemtum tells us that as the energy is passed to the clubhead in the final stages approaching impact, the hands slow. And the movement of the clubshaft just before impact is almost entirely from the wrists. The location of the axis of THIS system of rotation, at the hands, will have a HUGE effect on the ultimate location of the lowest point of the clubhead arc. The farther along the shaft has unhinged at the wrists by impact, the less descending the Attack Angle will be, when the lowest point of the hand arc is constant. If their was only one system of rotation which was swinging the clubhead, then locating the lowest point would be simple.......it would always be in-line with the center of rotation. But ALL of the axes of rotation.....uppers sternum, left shoulder, and hands are influencing the ultimate location of the clubhead low point. The location of the axis at the wrists is HUGELY influential and as important as ever.

 

[bcoak]

Best teacher I have had was old school. Blades and woods. He played in some opens and pga's. Applying what I have learned here I know he got it, without the modern knowledge. One thing he said stuck with me- pros start releasing as soon as they start down. Dead true

 

[bcoak]

Turn the club around and hold it by the head. Take some swings and hear the swoosh after the ball.

So the pro that kinda held my hand while I was beginning the game brought something up with me today that kinda piqued my interest. This is the same pro who has 125mph clubhead speed with the driver and can't get it to turn over. He has been experimenting with a more "active hands" release, if I were to call it anything. They had the Speed Whoosh training tool thing at the pro shop and he was screwing around with it, talking about timing and whatever. Getting the ball to deploy at the bottom. I recently have been practicing a kind of Stricker type feeling swing where I use absolutely no active hand rotation whatsoever, I just swing my arms a la TGM style I'd guess you'd say. Keep my impact hands ahead of the clubhead what feels like well through the ball while just rotating everything through. I'm trying to get rid of my flip because this adding loft to the clubface is killing me and it stinks to play golf flipping at the ball.

When I swing the Speed Whoosh, it deploys well past the ball, at the point where you'd call "Follow Through" if you were talking about it in TGM terms I think. Whatever the point is when both arms are straight and extended past the ball. Does this mean anything as far as clubhead speed at the ball is concerned? Am I letting the energy go late and should it ideally be deploying at the bottom?

 

[Mike O]

This guy does it well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7BREaOsuAA

The carry and free release are beautiful.

Here you can see the wide to wider/tangential motion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3m5yHY0ryU

I can't see the wide to wider - I guess I'd need to understand what you are measuring and how, in order to see it.

 

[ej20]

Wild Bill, nice, I dont know what shot he was trying to produce in this photo array, but that looks like a flip to me.

That's a flip to me albeit a well timed flip.I see about 99.99% of hackers doing it and about 99.99% of good players don't.So what do we do?Tell that 99.99% of hackers their technique is perfectly ok and tell the good players to start flipping it more?That makes a whole lot of sense.

We don't know what shot Wild Bill was playing here anyway and one photo is not conclusive of anthing.

 

[Kevin Shields]

I just dont get it. What in that move looks like a flip and not a released right wrist? Or is it the same to you?

 

[Brian Manzella]

That's a flip to me albeit a well timed flip.I see about 99.99% of hackers doing it and about 99.99% of good players don't.So what do we do?Tell that 99.99% of hackers their technique is perfectly ok and tell the good players to start flipping it more?That makes a whole lot of sense.

We don't know what shot Wild Bill was playing here anyway and one photo is not conclusive of anthing.

Really??

Look at the video I did with all the great players.

<iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/28263441" width="800" height="450" frameborder="0"></iframe>



Geez....

 

[ej20]

I have no problem seeing the right wrist flatten through impact.It's the left wrist bending that significantly so soon after impact that concerns me.The left wrist should bend after both arms straight.

The TGM idea that the right wrist flattening must occur with the left wrist bending at the same time is flawed in my opinion.You can indeed flatten the right wrist while keeping the left wrist flat.A full release does not mean a "slap hinge" release,whatever the heck that means.

 

[Michael Jacobs]

Hurricane clean up is over, the beach house has been water vac'd. Hurricane did a lot of damage on the northern tip of Long island as many still don't have power there. Anywho, the Explosive Golf Show part 3 on the subject will be posted this week {wednesday night} at 8pm

Lots of questions to answer and I will provide a whole slew of data and some imaging. All of this material is supposed to come out in a published work but I feel enticed to delve some more.

On a side note:
Everyone keeps asking me Mike - WHAT THE HELL IS SO NOVEL ABOUT YOUR SHOWS??? Listen folks, where in golf instruction has anyone ever focused in on the couple of the hands on the club??? There are so many references to the butt of the club and the right forefinger pressure point but 'The Couple' point came as a result of my own digging. If its published somewhere I would love to know, want to read what they say. Probably Penner discussed it the most... Focusing on the path of that COUPLE POINT is pretty dam revolutionary as far as I am concerned, anyone else agree???

As for the Homer Kelley loons who are harassing me -- Thats enough guys, leave me alone. You guys have lost all momentum and credibility. The icons of tgm are doing it such as disservice it has become a borderline comedy act. I don't see how anyone can argue the fact that TGM is a proponent of a same RPM Rhythm of the left arm and club, they are a proponent of striking down and out to low point!!! 100%.. Brian stood up at the last summit he attended and showed the bunch a pitch shots that he sees on tour where there is a little toss and he was lashed out at and was told the TOUR PLAYERS SHOULD KNOW BETTER. The system promotes a - STRAIGHT PLANE LINE - DOWN AND OUT TO LOW POINT HANDS - don't start now saying the aim point really means this or hinging really means this etc... Have you ever done a you tube search for the Basic Motion Cirriculum or Acquired Motion Ciriculum??? I suggest everyone take a peek and hopefully you won't choke on your popcorn. I was a GSED, was asked by Sally Kelley to rewrite the book so the masses could understand, she offered me the book for $100,000 and I would have had any and all autonomy to change anything I wanted. It was not worth that in my estimation and UNSALVAGEABLE!


The brain learning people:
yikes! dissect a golfing cadaver yet??


The biomechanics folks..

X Factor Stretch - Kinematic Sequence - Rate of Recoil - Physical Assesment -- all very interesting and nice stuff. I am adding 3D motion capture to my golf school - can't wait. Love my new associate Dave Kuck .. NOT THE ANSWER THOUGH -- It's a nice supplement to the study of the movement of the club

The movement of the inanimate object {the club} is the point of interest.

The stats of views are over 30,000 between this and my website - that might double when show #3 comes out wednesday night - stay tuned... stats galore coming

 

[DCgolf]

"Stand facing any good golfer and watch the space between his hands and right shoulder. You will see it widen like lightning". John Jacobs, Practical Golf, 1972

 

[Brian Manzella]

I have no problem seeing the right wrist flatten through impact.It's the left wrist bending that significantly so soon after impact that concerns me.The left wrist should bend after both arms straight.

The TGM idea that the right wrist flattening must occur with the left wrist bending at the same time is flawed in my opinion.You can indeed flatten the right wrist while keeping the left wrist flat.A full release does not mean a "slap hinge" release,whatever the heck that means.

Ok.

This is NOT ABOUT THE HOW, this is about the what.

And the WHAT is this:

ROTATION ABOUT THE COUPLING POINT WITH THE COUPLING POINT PATH BEING CONSTRAINED.

The golfer can do it all sorts of ways.

 

[ej20]

Brian,look at Sam Snead just after impact.Both arms straight,both wrist flat.Nothing like Wild Bill.

Wild Bill is a terrible example.In any case,I would want to see other examples of his swing to see if he does it all the time.