The Release w/Brian Manzella & Michael Jacobs

[footwedge]

Oh, I see, an echo chamber: no new information allowed, even if it is 100% impartial and factual. So lame. And I bought you dinner, not once, but twice! Shame on me.

HELLO....HELLO........hello..........hello...............hell..................hel...................he......................h.....................

 

[Michael Finney]

Sure seems like the focus now is more on what the club does during the swing than what the golfer's body is doing.

nesbit's hub path is measured to a geometric center of rotation...not a body part

the golf club's center of gravity is not on the golf club....

the coupling point, while defined by the hands, may end up being off the golfer....

aaron zick, sasho mackenzie, and steve nesbit have some explaining to do....we'll see you in new york on december 5

 

[burners]

Simple

To paraphrase/quote Ben D.: "Shoot the Marble"!

 

[lia41985]

Jack from Golf My Way:

The other point I want to make brings us back to that deathless subject of golfing debate, "method." Although I wish it weren't the case, it is probably inevitable that some of the material in this book will be used in attempts to prove or disprove theoretical points about the golf swing--particularly, unless I miss my guess, in the "body vs. hands" debate.

Well, as the foregoing must conclusively prove, the emphasis in my game is on body action. In fact, if it were on hand action I have the feeling I'd still be selling insurance and beating it around Scioto for two-dollar Nassaus Saturday mornings. I don't mean to say that my hands play no part in hitting a golf ball. They most certainly do. But in my case, unlike that of the predominantly "hands" player, the hands function as a result, not as a detriment, of body action.

This was another interesting point that arose in the discussion with British teaching ace John Jacobs that I mentioned some chapters earlier. John finds that many golfers who have read instructional books and/or studied swing sequence photographs, tend to overemphasize body action at the expense of hand or arm action. He blames this overemphasis on two factors. First, he says, modern playing professionals who write about their games nearly all emphasize body action because their hands and arms work automatically. Second, he feels the stop-action camera's depiction of the good golfer's super delayed hand or wrist release on the forward swing makes it look like the hands and arms are being deliberately restrained during the downswing.

Jacobs claims these two factors cause a lot of club golfers to try to take their hands and wrists out of the swing entirely. In his words to me: "Many golfers try to force themselves into the 'late hit' position shown in sequence pictures of people like you, Jack, by deliberately restraining the release of the club head on the way down--by holding back with their hands, wrists, and arms"

To effect a cure, Jacobs finds that he has to accent a free, fast arm-swing--or even, in the worst cases, a temporary feeling by the pupil that he's "throwing" the club head into the ball from the top.

Well, John asked me for an opinion on this matter, and what I told him was this. In my view, it is impossible to "release" too early with the hands, wrists, and arms so long as the legs and hips have worked ahead of them and the left hand holds onto the club firmly. I think I actually said the following: "When I move my legs and left side correctly starting down, I can hit as hard as I like from the top of the swing--really throw the club head into the ball with everything I've got. So long as my left hand stays in control of the club, I'll hit good shots. In fact, that's just how I hit my biggest drives."

I bring this point up in closing the section on full-swing mechanics, because I'd like you to keep it in mind if you ever decide to give the Nicklaus-type swing a serious trial. Remember, please, that the trick is not consciously to hold back with your hands, wrists, and arms--ever. The trick is to use your body to make those components work in the right direction at the right time. But work they certainly must, unless you'll be content to play your approach shots before everyone else the rest of your golfing days.

 

[dschultz6072]

Jack from Golf My Way:

I was just reading that on the pot.

 

[lia41985]

Take the hands in a figure 8!

The hands go in towards your right pocket and get the club as up, in, and across as you can get with the right elbow as high as you can get it. Now swing your hands out and around from your right shoulder into your left pocket while not allowing the hands to stretch too far from the body but straightening the arms downward. This will require your shoulders to rotate around on a relatively flat plane (a flatter plane that your arms are moving on). This is after you've performed a counterfall that gets you in a position that's closed enough such that you can spring out and around while pushing the weight into and out of the ground with primarily the left leg moving vertically while the right instep drives laterally. If you come up onto your right toe, that's ok unless you start pulling the ball. On the downswing, feel as if there were no clubhead that you'd be able to stab the shaft into your left heel with the straightening and crossing over of the arms and the softening of your wrists which would result in you actually stabbing your target wards driving right thigh with the grip end. Don't let that grip end stray too far from your groin, pardon me. The rhythm of this entire motion comes from your belly and your feet with no tension at all in the body with looseness especially needed in the shoulders, arms, wrists and hands. But the same applies for the feet. Forget trying to grip the ground if it means keeping your feet firmly planted at all times. Look at Bobby
Jones's footwork and tell me what you see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vc1grT-mQo4

I see: loose feet, loose everything with the center driving the motion and helping to direct energy outwards to the clubhead.

 

[birly-shirly]

Let me say this, there is nothing wrong with dragging the handle.

Nothing wrong with having the club up your left arm.

Just not optimum.

I guess you'd have HAD TO learned not to drag, then to drag, then not to drag to really know.

OK. But surely the take home message from Michael's videos is that FATS or aiming the hands forward or down is a terrible way to learn to drag the handle. Even if that's what you need to learn.

 

[lia41985]

nesbit's hub path is measured to a geometric center of rotation...not a body part...the coupling point, while defined by the hands, may end up being off the golfer....

Michael: please watch starting from 1:12: Bobby Jones 1930 Golf Swing Analysis Film Rare - YouTube

 

[dschultz6072]

Geez...Couples' and Jones' swings looks freakishly similar.

Check out 4:25 too

 

[wulsy]

But the hands are pretty good.

<iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/28333823?color=c9ff23" width="800" height="450" frameborder="0"></iframe>

You've still got that flat left wrist! Do you want rid of it? If so, how are you going to get it? Are you a reformed dragger who still has some deep seated inhibitions to stop dragging and start tossing?

 

[Dariusz J.]

I have no problem seeing the right wrist flatten through impact.It's the left wrist bending that significantly so soon after impact that concerns me.The left wrist should bend after both arms straight.

The TGM idea that the right wrist flattening must occur with the left wrist bending at the same time is flawed in my opinion.You can indeed flatten the right wrist while keeping the left wrist flat.A full release does not mean a "slap hinge" release,whatever the heck that means.

Interesting. As I said before, slap-hinge release was used by the old greats (not only Wild Bill but also Vardon, and Jones - look at the Jones chipping vid above). It is not similar at all to basic or acquired motion principles proposed by TGM. And whom one should believe more ? Mehlhorn or Jones or Cotton compared to Kelley and his blind cult believers ? Do not make me laugh ROFL.

Cheers

 

[scorekeeper]

Interesting. As I said before, slap-hinge release was used by the old greats (not only Wild Bill but also Vardon, and Jones - look at the Jones chipping vid above). It is not similar at all to basic or acquired motion principles proposed by TGM. And whom one should believe more ? Mehlhorn or Jones or Cotton compared to Kelley and his blind cult believers ? Do not make me laugh ROFL.

Cheers

there are NONE so blind............as those who will "NOT"see

 

[Kevin Shields]

Geez...Couples' and Jones' swings looks freakishly similar.

Check out 4:25 too

Did you see him tap down behind the ball?!!!! Where's the internet golf police on this one. Can we retroactively strip him of his majors?

 

[Kevin Shields]

You've still got that flat left wrist! Do you want rid of it? If so, how are you going to get it? Are you a reformed dragger who still has some deep seated inhibitions to stop dragging and start tossing?

I dont know if you're just trying to antagonize, but I'm sure you're aware of the fact that his "flat" wrist bends very soon after impact and all the preparation for that is different and happens sooner. He was taught and successfully tried to keep it flat and rolled all the way into the finish.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Oh, I see, an echo chamber: no new information allowed, even if it is 100% impartial and factual. So lame. And I bought you dinner, not once, but twice! Shame on me.

What new information did you provide? Did I miss a post?

 

[Dariusz J.]

there are NONE so blind............as those who will "NOT"see

Very true.

Did you see him tap down behind the ball?!!!! Where's the internet golf police on this one. Can we retroactively strip him of his majors?

LOL. Imagine a TGM "expert" seeing Jones practicing chipping, coming closer with his visit card saying "we must work on your basic motion and hacker's left wrist, son. Call me".
The true history, however, could be this - it's not Bob Jones but a golfer with fairly good short game with his non-TGM release, he calls and get a few lessons from GSEB or GSED or whatever they call themselves ROFL - and the effect will be that the guy starts topping, shanking and losing not only his game but hundreds of $.

Cheers

 

[blehnhard]

Bobby Jones - poster boy for the mid-sole chip and pitch. No "leading edge" stuff there.

Bruce

 

[ekennedy]

I love this thread. All great, useful info.

For what its worth, anyone on this forum (especially teachers) who claim that they already knew all of this info and its not revolutionary need to admit one thing. They are either lying (and stirring the pot) or they are the worst teachers ever. Your students should be winning golf tournaments and you should be winning awards.

 

[ekennedy]

An observation- it makes sense why "impact hands" at address or an overly strong grip are just band aids for the average golfer. A slightly weaker grip and mid-body hands would allow for a wider downswing, more freedom to toss (and easier for lineup) and a left wrist that hinges better post impact.

After experimenting, I found that not delaying the release or over accelarating the lead arm keeps the upper left arm against my chest post impact, higher ball flight and terrific balance. Nice bi-products.

 

[mgranato]

How are people supposed to know you know it all if you don't tell everyone you know it all? The fact that "Already Knew It Guy" tells you he already knew it after the fact is immaterial. Sometimes he doesn't even realize he already knew it until someone makes the discovery to remind him he already knew it.