The Release w/Brian Manzella & Michael Jacobs

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lia41985

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How are people taking this as a motion in which the arms just slap at the ball? Either people are illiterate or purposefully ignorant. Here:

Pivoting like crazy is crazy...Trying to shift weight back and forth, or NOT shift weight at all, or shift forward early, are ALL a waste of time. So is trying to restrict the movement of the head. THEY ARE ALL REACTIONS TO THE SWING when down properly, except maybe something to start the thing off for some...The pivot is very important for POSITIONING the shoulder complexes/arms/wrists/hands/& club...The "line up" gets SOME help from the momentum of the swing, but shoulder complexes/arms/wrists/hands/& club + the rest of the pivot does all the real work.
The sort of intellectual dishonesty some people are displaying here is just sad. I guess at some point you've just gotta let people believe what they want but it'd be nice if there wasn't a bunch of trash masquerading as posts to navigate around.
 
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bimyow

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Lia, I definitely think that snip-it of Jack from "Golf My Way" gives a lot of insight into all the info in this thread. I believe Brian alluded to this as well that the pivot assists the "hitting from the top" or "closing the gap". I honestly believe the coupling point moving upwards is a reaction to the proper move from the top. My opinion though.

Btw, absolutely loving this thread!
 

lia41985

New member
Thanks, bimyow. I'm glad you found the quotation helpful in terms of formulating it for yourself. I hope it helps you play your best golf. All the best!
 

lia41985

New member
Here it is again, from Golf My Way:
In my view, it is impossible to "release" too early with the hands, wrists, and arms so long as the legs and hips have worked ahead of them and the left hand holds onto the club firmly. I think I actually said the following: "When I move my legs and left side correctly starting down, I can hit as hard as I like from the top of the swing--really throw the club head into the ball with everything I've got. So long as my left hand stays in control of the club, I'll hit good shots. In fact, that's just how I hit my biggest drives."
I've added the emphasis.

Hips, hands, and club head is still the correct sequence but to sequence it correctly you've still gotta close the gap in order to line it up which is what Michael's video was about.
 
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Michael Jacobs

Super Moderator
Here it is again, from Golf My Way:

I've added the emphasis.

Hips, hands, and club head is still the correct sequence but to sequence it correctly you've still gotta close the gap in order to line it up which is what Michael's video was about.

Lia,

You are doing a great job, you are way ahead of the game.. you have been summarizing very well!
 

lia41985

New member
Michael,
Thanks for the compliment and all your hard work. However, I can't take credit for doing a great job seeing as how all I'm doing is reading and thinking. These are skills I acquired fully by the time I graduated high school. I'm in law school and perhaps fairly literate but really it doesn't take much.
 
Michael,
Thanks for the compliment and all your hard work. However, I can't take credit for doing a great job seeing as how all I'm doing is reading and thinking. These are skills I acquired fully by the time I graduated high school. I'm in law school and perhaps fairly literate but really it doesn't take much.

You'd be surprised...
 

Jared Willerson

Super Moderator
That is a perfectly executed slap hinge release.He needs no lessons,just more practice.LOL

That is a gross misinterpretation of what is going on and worst of all...you know it. Sequence is still important. Did you see the video of golfers Brian put up?
 
I dont know if you're just trying to antagonize, but I'm sure you're aware of the fact that his "flat" wrist bends very soon after impact and all the preparation for that is different and happens sooner. He was taught and successfully tried to keep it flat and rolled all the way into the finish.

Not trying to antagonise at all. They were genuine questions.

All those on the forum here who never pose a real question who just come on and say "Oh Brian you're such a great guy" don't advance the argument. Genuine questions and genuine critique advances the argument. I'm certainly not one of the TGMers: never was never will be. I'm just in it to advance the argument for my own benefit and as a consequence probably everyone else's as well.

So again: Brian, do you want rid of your FLW at impact. How much twisting is taking place during the shaft rotation?
 

dbl

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Lia, great couple of posts. In post 439, where you say "radial deviation" don't you mean dorsiflexion? I hate all those terms, but left wrist radial deviation would be cocking, as in position 4. Yet I imagine you were trying to show left wrist bending/cupping in release and after. Perhaps I'm wrong, and apologies.
 

ej20

New
That is a gross misinterpretation of what is going on and worst of all...you know it. Sequence is still important. Did you see the video of golfers Brian put up?

That was a bit tongue in cheek,just having a good natured banter with Dariusz J.

Yes,I did watch that video and honestly,with the exception of Vardon,I don't see a "slap hinge" release ala Wild Bill anywhere.It must be noted that both Vardon and Wild Bill(what a name) played with hickory shafts so I don't know if that means anything.

Brian himself certainly doesn't slap hinge it but it will be interesting to see if manages to do so and the results that follow.I will keep an open mind on the matter but at the moment I ain't convinced.
 

dbl

New
So again: Brian, do you want rid of your FLW at impact. How much twisting is taking place during the shaft rotation?

Brian's sample swing was not, we shall assume, burdened by trying to maintain a FLW. However your question begs the question of whether he would have some improvement in a desired swing quality by some anti-FLW or deep bending motion. THAT may be a horse of a different color. IE, you question assumes a result not yet shown.

So the point may be for YOU, to go and produce several different swings and release types and then further refine and adjust grips and various points of release and so on to get your optimal strike...right? Certainly my mission. So far I think I have this to a good degree. Mainly I "free myself" from a notion of wrist condition at impact, and do THREE other important things (from this thread) right.
 
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Here it is again, from Golf My Way:

I've added the emphasis.

Hips, hands, and club head is still the correct sequence but to sequence it correctly you've still gotta close the gap in order to line it up which is what Michael's video was about.

Those are good underlines. Nicklaus and Jones both viewed the golf swing as an almost entirely left-sided affair, save for the moment of truth near the bottom (coupling point?) where the right hand assumes control for the actual delivery of the strike. The teaching of it will be interesting and IMO the revolutionary part, I don't think an average player has ever had a true conception of the magnitutude of left side control in their golf swings. Golf instruction in general has never solved this pickle.
 

lia41985

New member
Lia, great couple of posts. In post 439, where you say "radial deviation" don't you mean dorsiflexion? I hate all those terms, but left wrist radial deviation would be cocking, as in position 4. Yet I imagine you were trying to show left wrist bending/cupping in release and after. Perhaps I'm wrong, and apologies.
There's flexion and deviation at play but both are part of having the wrists "release". Thanks for your question. It clarified my thinking further.
 

lia41985

New member
Those are good underlines. Nicklaus and Jones both viewed the golf swing as an almost entirely left-sided affair, save for the moment of truth near the bottom (coupling point?) where the right hand assumes control for the actual delivery of the strike. The teaching of it will be interesting and IMO the revolutionary part, I don't think an average player has ever had a true conception of the magnitutude of left side control in their golf swings. Golf instruction in general has never solved this pickle.
I don't know if the left side is necessarily the secret to great golf. If you can get the left side to pull you and the club to a certain point so that you can throw with the right, that sounds good to me. But the right side needs to throw.
 

Dariusz J.

New member
Yes,I did watch that video and honestly,with the exception of Vardon,I don't see a "slap hinge" release ala Wild Bill anywhere.It must be noted that both Vardon and Wild Bill(what a name) played with hickory shafts so I don't know if that means anything.

Have you seen the Bob Jones chipping video that I referenced ? Your comment concerning hickory shafts may be very good that's why Vardon's and Mehlhorn's hinge seems to be excessive. It doesn't say that steel shafts alone make this kind of release wrong (I believe Cotton played with stell shafts) - it's the ignorant instruction that condemned it.


There's flexion and deviation at play but both are part of having the wrists "release". Thanks for your question. It clarified my thinking further.

(Ulnar) deviation in crossover release (that's why it seems the wrist is not much flexed because forearms rolled), (dorsal) flexion in slap-hinge release (because the rollover of forearms is limited). Typical qui pro quo situation as many in biomechanics.

Cheers
 

Jared Willerson

Super Moderator
That was a bit tongue in cheek,just having a good natured banter with Dariusz J.

Yes,I did watch that video and honestly,with the exception of Vardon,I don't see a "slap hinge" release ala Wild Bill anywhere.It must be noted that both Vardon and Wild Bill(what a name) played with hickory shafts so I don't know if that means anything.

Brian himself certainly doesn't slap hinge it but it will be interesting to see if manages to do so and the results that follow.I will keep an open mind on the matter but at the moment I ain't convinced.

Certainly there are extreme examples, however not one of them was on their back foot flipping away at the ball. I don't slap hinge either, but allowing myself to release the right wrist bend has freed up my golf game a lot. This information has also helped.

Here is a video of me letting the right wrist loose.....still dragging the handle a bit though. This was taken a year ago.

JLW Jun10_3.MOV - YouTube
 
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ej20

New
Have you seen the Bob Jones chipping video that I referenced ? Your comment concerning hickory shafts may be very good that's why Vardon's and Mehlhorn's hinge seems to be excessive. It doesn't say that steel shafts alone make this kind of release wrong (I believe Cotton played with stell shafts) - it's the ignorant instruction that condemned it.



Look at Gay's swing DTL and you will see a poor pivot resulting in goat humping & poor impact posture typical for hands driven motions. Hid FO swing does not look bad though.



(Ulnar) deviation in crossover release (that's why it seems the wrist is not much flexed because forearms rolled), (dorsal) flexion in slap-hinge release (because the rollover of forearms is limited). Typical qui pro quo situation as many in biomechanics.

Cheers

Back in the day,the chipping stroke was generally more wristy as was the putting stroke.Jones could not transition to steel shafts and that is one of the reasons he retired so early.

As for Cotton,I am still waiting for some clear pics or videos of him slap hinging like Wild Bill,all chicken wing and 45 deg bent left wrist.There are no videos on youtube and nothing with google search.What he thought he did and what he really did may not be the same.
 
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