The Release w/Brian Manzella & Michael Jacobs

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ej20

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Jared Willerson said:
Certainly there are extreme examples, however not one of them was on their back foot flipping away at the ball. I don't slap hinge either, but allowing myself to release the right wrist bend has freed up my golf game a lot. This information has also helped.

Here is a video of me letting the right wrist loose.

JLW Jun10_3.MOV - YouTube
Click to expand...

Like I said before,I don't have a problem with releasing the right wrist flat through impact but flattening the right wrist doesn't automatically mean the left wrist bends.It can bend but it can also remain flat if you full roll.

I really don't understand what we are arguing about anyway.Good players can do both depending on the shot they are playing.If you want to hit a high flop,then by all means flip it a little but if you want to hit a low punch that ain't gonna work.You had better supinate,keep that left wrist flat and roll.
 
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welshdentist

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Jared Willerson said:
Certainly there are extreme examples, however not one of them was on their back foot flipping away at the ball. I don't slap hinge either, but allowing myself to release the right wrist bend has freed up my golf game a lot. This information has also helped.

Here is a video of me letting the right wrist loose.....still dragging the handle a bit though. I took this a year ago.

JLW Jun10_3.MOV - YouTube
Click to expand...

You will burn in hell for that flip :p

Keeping right wrist bent contributed to yips for me.....holding onto the bend too much is deadly, and most people misinterpret it that way from TGM. Even TGM teachers :cool:

I did the TGM thing wrong, but it was wrong for me anyway :eek:

Anyone a bit nervy and holding onto it for too long will have to panic flip and back out.
It's weird to thing the intention to lag it can mean no lag. Nice paradox there...

I've been there :mad:

Freddy was my hero growing up, and is my new hero again.

Effortless power = No FATS at impact (but loads before at some point and using so much we run out of it??)

I dug out my taly and hit a chip or two in the garden. It seems to me in the short position the red ball down to ground until right thigh, then up and in feels like a tour pitch to me :eek:

Anyone who actually knows what they are talking about confirm this, richie3jack?
 
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dbl

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EJ there are 2 youtube videos of Cotton. He was definitely a handsy player as he is described. The shorter video shows better imo some pretty active hands and the shaft definitely catches up to the hands. I downloaded and converted it to a MOV file so I could step through it. (Reminder - steel shaft era)
 
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Tball88

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ok, so if I have this right, we're discussing a horizontal bending and unbending of the wrists, as opposed to a vertical bending and roll.

This is actually what I naturally want to do, but was told it was flipping and something I was coached out of, also while I do like to use my wrist more actively and it feels strong, I have two problems.

1. If I actively bend my right wrist to set up for an unbending, I have a strong tendency to get very flat on the backswing.
2. Timing is a tougher, If I release a bit early, it is fore left for sure.

I've hit some really nice shots with this kind of method, however, I'm a little torn as to wheather an active hand slap is better than a roll. Also, there is a guy in Texas Lee Comeaux, he's also on the secret in the dirt forum, who is a big advocate of a right hand slap.

Interesting stuff.
 
lia41985

lia41985

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Get the club to do what it needs to do to get the ball to do what you want it to do. Whatever the body needs to do to help the club effectuate this end so be it.

The low punch? The club's going to do something to create that ball flight. But how did a "sweep releaser" like Tom Watson play so well at Open Championships on wind swept links courses? Closing the gap and lining it up isn't anathema to creating any particular ball flights. You're just going to have to match up the components to make the club do what it needs to do and that doesn't mean you've gotta drag to punch.
 
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lia41985

lia41985

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dbl said:
EJ there are 2 youtube videos of Cotton. He was definitely a handsy player as he is described. The shorter video shows better imo some pretty active hands and the shaft definitely catches up to the hands. I downloaded and converted it to a MOV file so I could step through it. (Reminder - steel shaft era)
Click to expand...
I'd love a frame by frame if you could, please.
 
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Curbanski

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Hi Michael Jocobs,

In post 377, you write:


""Everyone keeps asking me Mike - WHAT THE HELL IS SO NOVEL ABOUT YOUR SHOWS??? Listen folks, where in golf instruction has anyone ever focused in on the couple of the hands on the club??? There are so many references to the butt of the club and the right forefinger pressure point but 'The Couple' point came as a result of my own digging. If its published somewhere I would love to know, want to read what they say. Probably Penner discussed it the most... Focusing on the path of that COUPLE POINT is pretty dam revolutionary as far as I am concerned, anyone else agree??? ""


While he doesn't focus on the "path" of the couple point, John Zumerchik in "Newton on the Tee" mentions a point between the hands that he calls a "force couple." He doesn't mention it but a for few paragraphs starting on page 16.

I mention this as a potential source of new information for you per your request above. I found it to be valuable and now it takes on even more importance with this "eye opening" thread.

Thanks for your massive efforts..... the both of ya
 
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ej20

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dbl said:
EJ there are 2 youtube videos of Cotton. He was definitely a handsy player as he is described. The shorter video shows better imo some pretty active hands and the shaft definitely catches up to the hands. I downloaded and converted it to a MOV file so I could step through it. (Reminder - steel shaft era)
Click to expand...

Well,like I said,there are no CLEAR videos or pics of Cotton.I have seen these and most people would agree impact is way too blurry to come to any conclusions.There is a one of him hitting out of a bunker and his left wrist is ramrod flat after impact if that means anything.Like I keep saying,slapping your right wrist flat doesn't mean the left will always break down.There are numerous swing vision shots that show this is possible.
 
lia41985

lia41985

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Dariusz,
I'm always "humping the goat" but as I've gotten better at carrying, dropping, and dumping (Brian's terms that I hope don't get lost in translation), I've hit the ball better than I ever have. Is there anything wrong with early extension if the club is directing the ball where you want it to go? I know some feel that early extension causes "pivot stall." This could lead to a too rightwards path but that's the beauty of the carry and why I implement it into my pattern. It's just physically easier for me to do than to stay in my forward bend and rotate. As long as the ball is doing what I want I'm happy. And honestly, it feels easier on my hips and back which makes me think it's healthier for me. Individualization is a must and I think we're doing ourselves a disservice for disparaging body movements that may look strange but that actually effectuate proper club geometry.
 
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ej20

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lia41985 said:
Get the club to do what it needs to do to get the ball to do what you want it to do. Whatever the body needs to do to help the club effectuate this end so be it.

The low punch? The club's going to do something to create that ball flight. But how did a "sweep releaser" like Tom Watson play so well at Open Championships on wind swept links courses? Closing the gap and lining it up isn't anathema to creating any particular ball flights. You're just going to have to match up the components to make the club do what it needs to do and that doesn't mean you've gotta drag to punch.
Click to expand...

Sweep releasing doesn't mean you flip your left wrist through impact.You can still get plenty of shaft lean and hit it low with a sweep release.
 
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fronesis

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welshdentist said:
Anyone a bit nervy and holding onto it for too long will have to panic flip and back out.
It's weird to thing the intention to lag it can mean no lag. Nice paradox there...
Click to expand...

EXACTLY!

This is a really important point, especially for players who started with somewhat "looser" swings and pretty "good hands." My MISS has been a flip for a while now, but I think it was mostly happening when I was trying the hardest not to flip. When I just swing the club and "line it up" I don't have to worry about a "flip."
 
lia41985

lia41985

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frosnesis: As Brian says, it's easier to move into a position than it is to hold a position. Lining it up will probably work much better for most people than trying to maintain a so-called "in line condition."
 
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fronesis

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I'm no expert in golf, but my vocation is teaching. Reading the entirety of this thread confirms what an incredible teacher Brian is, along with his other instructors.

Oh, and Lia is an outstanding student, who is welcome to enroll in any of my PhD seminars - anytime. Some great clarifications to us other students reading this thread - thanks for those.
 
Michael Jacobs

Michael Jacobs

Super Moderator
SWEEP RELEASING?? SLAP HINGING???

You all have to be kidding me... The whole structure of this thread comes from the 'PATH OF THE COUPLE'

You can strike the ball well with forward lean - the couple of the club's path will then be well on its journey up. The greater the forward lean of the golfer the sharper 'up' the path of the couple will appear through impact


The Less the forward lean the more the COUPLE will appear to take a much more even curve through the impact area, a much less high performance move for some... and will be found to be very optimal for the higher capper

The whole discussion is on the PATH OF THE COUPLE - WHEN IT IS WELL TIMED IT DELAYS THE OUTWARD MOVE OF THE CLUB

and the discussion includes HOW THIS EFFECTS THE TRAVEL OF THE CLUB HEAD

Some other points of interest:

1. The club head and the hands coupled do not have the same centers - they move at different rates

2. The golf club shaft experiences 2 completely different modes

3. The more you go up the left arm into the follow through the sharper the couple path appears through the hit zone. Therefore, the sharper the couple path the LOWER its CENTER


How the hell has this thread become a I KNEW THIS AND THIS ISN'T a NOVEL IDEA... come on man, Im giving you gold here... this is the culmination of the largest research project a regular little golf pro has taken on

This was a question to me from another site:

Mike,

What are your sources of this new information, anyone in particular? Surely the reason there is 0% FATS at impact is because the force has been transfered into the club and the equal opposite reaction has slowed the hands? What is groundbreaking about this, it is just the kinetic chain at work, much talked about in Jorgensen's book published years ago? As for allowing the club to move away from your neckbone early in the swing is just a form of sweep release "a rose by any other name"?
What am I missing MJ? Please enlighten me.. geniunely

I totally agree that directing the hands at the so called aim point is a bad idea and caused a lot of pain for a lot of golfers, even for flippers a better positioning of the body would have helped a lot more


ANSWER:

The sources of the information are from a large pool, a pool of just about every scientific published paper that I have purchased for the most part.

#1 - When you search through the annals of the golf instruction world, how many times have you seen the Couple point of the 2 hands be the concentration point of the golfer?? I had never, I came up with through my own digging. If someone else had, I would be interested to read their interpretations. Regardless, this is novel and I find it to be very ground breaking. If you don't agree, thats completely fine

#2 - A rose?? Don't think so, NO WAY A SWEEP RELEASE, first off the golfing machine vernacular has to go, secondly we are talking AN OPTIMIZED PATH OF THE COUPLE POINT OF THE CLUB -- An optimized path is one where the outward movement of the club is well timed for a max impact

What I do find interesting is I put out a new idea and everyone quickly sticks it into existing wrappers of instruction and information.

#3 What I have shared with everyone goes way beyond the the work of Jorgensen, it encompasses a collection of ideas that include modeling of every style
 
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Virtuoso

Virtuoso

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lia41985 said:
This guy isn't doing it like how Brian, Michael, or Jack Nicklaus are saying to. Read that quote from Gold My Way carefully. Certainly, it seems you have a preference for more of a rotary, medicine ball tossing, Manassero/Mahan type motion--something that appears and is taught as more of a drag. Just try and be open to at least learning this even if you don't want to teach it to your students. The body needs to do certain things. Don't think that just because the grip swings up and in that that's everything. The two Michaels and Brian are talking about MULTIPLE components leading to one particular phenomenon. There's a what and there's a how and why. You're not so veiled way of saying that what this guy is doing is what Michael and Brian are instructing is off base. Here's how one guy, who happened to win more majors than anyone in history, used to do it: Drive It Like Nicklaus, by Brian Manzella | Videos | Golf.com
Click to expand...

For the record, let me say that I think Michael Jacobs did an excellent analysis of what "actually" happens with an effective release. I hold him in high regard anyway.

And, my comment wasn't veiled at all. I understand the guy in the vid is not doing what Michael explained, among many other things he is not doing correctly. But I still wouldn't tell him to close the gap more. He appears to me to be closing the gap too soon.
 
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dbl

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Frame by fame is not so good, but there is no handle dragging. This is just before impact (can see the ball) and right arm is already very straight.

cottonscreenshot034.jpg
 
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