The Release w/Brian Manzella & Michael Jacobs

[birly-shirly]

What is a flip?

Basically, the wrist movement that creates an unintentional BACKWARD lean of the hosel at or before impact.

Period.

I've never been totally comfortable with the conventional definition of a flip. I thought Dariusz' definition, based on the clubhead's path relative to the ground, had a lot to recommend it.

So what's the advantage of a definition based on clubface/hosel orientation rather than path? And why would the reference point be a hosel vertical to the ground, rather than, e.g. vertical to the path of the hands?

(with apologies for the loose use of "vertical" here - but hopefully it's clear enough what I mean)

 

[Brian Manzella]

Yep, you're a roller. Not surprising with that weak grip...sorry, I meant "neutral"...

Grip is much stronger than it has been, neutral grips are fine for some folks.

Sure seems like the focus now is more on what the club does during the swing than what the golfer's body is doing.

That's what the science studies, because, well, that's all the ball knows.

Oh, I see, an echo chamber: no new information allowed, even if it is 100% impartial and factual. So lame. And I bought you dinner, not once, but twice! Shame on me.

Jeff, just enforcing rules.

Links to other sites....other teachers, on every long post, would be a disaster.

To paraphrase/quote Ben D.: "Shoot the Marble"!

As long Ben was Ben and not channelling Homer, it was all good.

You've still got that flat left wrist! Do you want rid of it? If so, how are you going to get it? Are you a reformed dragger who still has some deep seated inhibitions to stop dragging and start tossing?

That's the point, bra.

Lots of handle-draggers out there.

The JP Wedge company is sort of built around that fact.

Bobby Jones - poster boy for the mid-sole chip and pitch. No "leading edge" stuff there.

Bruce

Thanks Bruce.

So what's the advantage of a definition based on clubface/hosel orientation rather than path? And why would the reference point be a hosel vertical to the ground, rather than, e.g. vertical to the path of the hands?

The shaft bends BACKWARDS AT IMPACT, but the club can still be leaning forward.

Hense.....the hosel.

 

[leon]

How are people supposed to know you know it all if you don't tell everyone you know it all? The fact that "Already Knew It Guy" tells you he already knew it after the fact is immaterial. Sometimes he doesn't even realize he already knew it until someone makes the discovery to remind him he already knew it.

I knew you were going to say that

Maybe this is so obvious to some because they're already huge tossers!

btw, nice sig, and quite apt - "some say he has a flat left wrist at impact, and that he lags pp#8!"

 

[birly-shirly]

The shaft bends BACKWARDS AT IMPACT, but the club can still be leaning forward.

Hense.....the hosel.

Got that. But why measure the hosel relative to the ground, rather than relative to the (upward) hand path?

So long as the AoA is somewhat downward and the ground doesn't physically get in the way, isn't ground level irrelevant to impact? So why use ground level or vertical as a reference point for defining a flip? If you had a slightly backward leaning hosel combined with a downward angle of attack - would that still be a fault, or just a higher launch?

 

[Brian Manzella]

Got that. But why measure the hosel relative to the ground, rather than relative to the (upward) hand path?

Because TRACKMAN and the ball "measure" it that way.

 

[lia41985]

I can't believe I hadn't seen the "Drive It Like Nicklaus" video before. Where were the critics then? Do y'all wanna start learning how to do that or just keep trying to look like your favorite picture of Ben Hogan where he's not even doing what some of you think that he's doing? Get the club to work like club by getting the shaft to actually work like a shaft! Get over this obsession with the "Geometry of the Circle" and start learning about the geometry of nonconcentric ellipses! The greats can teach us or we can keep "learning" from Homer Kelley while ignoring his call to advance understanding. It's a choice. Simple as that. Thank goodness for this crop of scientists (Zick, Nesbit, Groeber, Miura, McKenzie, etc.) and this forum and its proprietors.

 

[leon]

I can't believe I hadn't seen the "Drive It Like Nicklaus" video before. Where were the critics then? Do y'all wanna start learning how to do that or just keep trying to look like your favorite picture of Ben Hogan where he's not even doing what some of you think that he's doing? Get the club to work like club by getting the shaft to actually work like a shaft! Get over this obsession with the "Geometry of the Circle" and start learning about the geometry of nonconcentric ellipses! The greats can teach us or we can keep "learning" from Homer Kelley while ignoring his call to advance understanding. It's a choice. Simple as that. Thank goodness for this crop of scientists (Zick, Nesbit, Groeber, Miura, McKenzie, etc.) and this forum and its proprietors.

Which reminds me of another thing I have been thinking since this thread started. The problem with being a scientist, or science focussed, especially in a field of active research, is that sooner or later someone is going to prove you at least a little bit wrong. There are no absolutes, just theories that are yet to be disproven. Take for example the pretty relevant laws of motion. Newton had a fair stab at it, but ultimately wasn't really right. Einstein got closer, but no cigar for him either. Stephen Hawking made a lot of sense, but some of his stuff is getting surpassed now. So what hope did a middle of the road engineer without access to high speed video and 3D measurement have. To be honest, for his time he did a pretty good job.

I'm sure I said something similar to this a year ago in my first ever post. Oh well, round we go again then

 

[mgranato]

I knew you were going to say that

Maybe this is so obvious to some because they're already huge tossers!

btw, nice sig, and quite apt - "some say he has a flat left wrist at impact, and that he lags pp#8!"

Some say he knows two facts about the release, and both are wrong!

 

[Brian Manzella]

Lia....no wars please.

There are ultimately many releases.

But which one is the best?

Ah.....

 

[carland]

nesbit's hub path is measured to a geometric center of rotation...not a body part

the golf club's center of gravity is not on the golf club....

the coupling point, while defined by the hands, may end up being off the golfer....

aaron zick, sasho mackenzie, and steve nesbit have some explaining to do....we'll see you in new york on december 5

I recognize these names from Brian's post but don't know what Zick, MacKenzie and Nesbit say. I'd be interested to read anything that's understandable for a non-scientist. I'd love to come to New York, but I'm no golf expert, just a handle dragger who wants to break 80 more frequently.

1. What is the hub path?
2. Where is the golf club's center of gravity and why does that matter to someone like me just trying to hit it better?
3. Why would the coupling point be off the golf club?

Someone else wrote about the mid-sole pitch. Jim Kobylinski taught that to me earlier this summer when I had overdone COFF. I was hitting little pitch shots too hard and too low. If I was lucky, they had a lot of backspin and wouldn't fly over the green, but I couldn't control the ball at all. Jim said it was OK to feel a little flippy on those shots. Got me hitting them a lot better.

 

[BertramSterling]

Love that Bobby Jones video...is he actually pitching with a 5-iron there? Having to watch without the sound, but the caption is "mashie = 5 iron"?

I only ask 'cause look how high he pitches it! I suppose a 5-iron then is now about a 7-iron or something (so we can 'hit it further') but still... I've pitched it similarly with a 60 degree wedge thanks to the 'hands forward at impact' method.

I was going to make a post about this actually, but haven't really got my thoughts in order. I was wondering how this relates to the short game more. I mean, I can see in a full swing the speed of the swing can prevent a flip (i.e. rather than 'holding' onto some angle and forcing hands forward artificially). I suppose now I am thinking of a flip more as stopping/slowing the hands to stand the shaft up in some misguided attempt to launch the ball airborne. Or, similarly, some sort of stall to square the face thus losing the momentum and having the club pass the hands unintentionally.

That being said, and depending on its validity, a small chip wouldn't have this speed. Also, on the shorter shots the hands start forward to create the shaft lean (as the swing is so much shorter). How does this affect the hand path we are talking about? And, if it does, at which point does it change (from chip to pitch, etc)?

Is it a case of still being up and in, regardless, but pre-setting the forward lean and releasing (depending on the length of shot)?

EDIT:
I'm particularly interested in getting my head around this as it relates to a small shot, as that is where I've seen the majority of the hands forward, aiming point stuff applied. You'll know the type, some video where a guy pitches by hitting extremely down, flat left wrist and never releasing the angle..

 

[gmbtempe]

Where is this unbending of the left wrist taking place just past impact? I see it rolling and the right wrist unbending.

 

[bimyow]

Close that gap!

(Disclaimer: I fully understand that we do not swing in perfect circles!)

After digesting all this info I started to wonder which parts of the info should be put into practice and which are results or reactions. If you try to get the clubhead to the ball as fast as possible from the top without passing your hands before impact I believe most of the stuff in this thread will happen somewhat naturally. This assumes you have a relatively straight left arm, obviously a little bend is ok and you aren't doing anything crazy with your body/pivot. There's always room for argument though.

At the very least I thought someone might get a kick out of my example.

 

[Virtuoso]

Should this guy close the gap more? This is what most of my students look like.

Hacker Golfswing - YouTube

 

[rprevost]

Close that gap!

(Disclaimer: I fully understand that we do not swing in perfect circles!)

After digesting all this info I started to wonder which parts of the info should be put into practice and which are results or reactions. If you try to get the clubhead to the ball as fast as possible from the top without passing your hands before impact I believe most of the stuff in this thread will happen somewhat naturally. This assumes you have a relatively straight left arm, obviously a little bend is ok and you aren't doing anything crazy with your body/pivot. There's always room for argument though.

At the very least I thought someone might get a kick out of my example.

Do you line it up at impact? or slightly after impact? I thought that it would be slightly after impact, which would be where you have that momentary flat left wrist and create the divot.

 

[ej20]

Interesting. As I said before, slap-hinge release was used by the old greats (not only Wild Bill but also Vardon, and Jones - look at the Jones chipping vid above). It is not similar at all to basic or acquired motion principles proposed by TGM. And whom one should believe more ? Mehlhorn or Jones or Cotton compared to Kelley and his blind cult believers ? Do not make me laugh ROFL.

Cheers

Slap hinge my a$$....check this video out and see for yourself.

This will blow your mind, MUST SEE!!!!

 

[Michael Jacobs]

Should this guy close the gap more? This is what most of my students look like.

Hacker Golfswing - YouTube

That guy should lower the club in his left hand, well down under the heel pad and then learn to train the club face and he would see a huge difference. Good luck with your students

 

[gmbtempe]

Should this guy close the gap more? This is what most of my students look like.

Hacker Golfswing - YouTube

I can think of 1 or 2 out of my 20 friends who might have too much lag and have trouble closing the gap (of course 1 of them is one of the best amateurs in the Country, not sure he wants to change).

Trying to figure out how this advice helps the average 20 handicapper, not seeing it yet, that is probably my fault.

 

[lia41985]

Where is this unbending of the left wrist taking place just past impact? I see it rolling and the right wrist unbending.

It's hard to see when the picture is blurry and so zoomed out. Here's another picture:

The radial deviation of the left wrist is obvious and look where the hands bottom out and how the handle moves up and in. You've got a few pictures I'm sure but how about Michael's numbers? What say you? Keep in mind that Tiger, for a while, played with an incredibly weak grip that'll give more of a roll look, per Brian's post. The handle moving up and in with the left wrist radially deviating is a reality.

This assumes you have a relatively straight left arm, obviously a little bend is ok and you aren't doing anything crazy with your body/pivot.

Read that quote from Jack in Golf My Way. Follow what he says (his assumptions about the left arm, hand, hip, and body pivot) and you'll be on your way.

Should this guy close the gap more? This is what most of my students look like.

This guy isn't doing it like how Brian, Michael, or Jack Nicklaus are saying to. Read that quote from Gold My Way carefully. Certainly, it seems you have a preference for more of a rotary, medicine ball tossing, Manassero/Mahan type motion--something that appears and is taught as more of a drag. Just try and be open to at least learning this even if you don't want to teach it to your students. The body needs to do certain things. Don't think that just because the grip swings up and in that that's everything. The two Michaels and Brian are talking about MULTIPLE components leading to one particular phenomenon. There's a what and there's a how and why. You're not so veiled way of saying that what this guy is doing is what Michael and Brian are instructing is off base. Here's how one guy, who happened to win more majors than anyone in history, used to do it: http://www.golf.com/golf/video/article/0,28224,2074783,00.html

 

[ej20]

Should this guy close the gap more? This is what most of my students look like.

Hacker Golfswing - YouTube

That is a perfectly executed slap hinge release.He needs no lessons,just more practice.LOL