The Release w/Brian Manzella & Michael Jacobs

[drewyallop]

One heck of an interesting thread I must say.

Speaking as a hacker who has yet to come close to becoming a better hacker, one of the main things I'm taking away from this discussion is that when I next get to the range I'll be concentrating a lot more on my shoulders/arms/hands in backswing to downswing mode than what passes for my pivot. I figure that keeping the "away from the target" beginning of the downswing and hands "up and in" near/at impact might, just might, make the proper pivot to line it all up something that comes naturally, rather than a conscious endeavor.

As a bonus, by becoming more shoulder/arm/hand-centric I'm thinking it'll be easier to increase my swing speed, with the prize being more distance.

Does anyone think I'm on the right track or have I completely lost the plot?

Thanks.

My experience too Svenster. Your pivot accomodates the move. Don't have to think about it. Thank God.

Drew

 

[Brian Manzella]

Here is a couple of shots from a 20 minute practice session this afternoon.

The driver swing has MUCH better "stabilized body" to release against.

The "lined up for impact" impact of mine visible in the back and froths of the 6-iron shot, is unlike any other impact pic of mine ever taken.


And I was rushing....


Too much roll and too soft of a base on the 6-iron.


But the hands are pretty good.

<iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/28333823?color=c9ff23" width="800" height="450" frameborder="0"></iframe>

 

[footwedge]

Brian,look at Sam Snead just after impact.Both arms straight,both wrist flat.Nothing like Wild Bill.

Wild Bill is a terrible example.In any case,I would want to see other examples of his swing to see if he does it all the time.

How could anyone with the name Wild Bill be a terrible example?

 

[hp12c]

Well, you asked I answered what I thought (although Brian's definition is much better, I agree). And the fact that you were taught that slap-hinge release is not a valid method of releasing is irrevelant. Simply the source you had this information is wrong and outdated. This type of release were OK in Vardon/Mehlhorn times, then Henry Cotton later classified it as one of three release types, and now true science revitalizes it while putting junk instruction to the trash bin, thanks God.

Cheers

Whoa there big fella I never said a slap hinge release was not a valid form of releasing, I stated what to me looked like a flip and wanted clarification and a consensus from the forum and just because I pointed out that your definition if a flip was so inadequate and too genenal of a definition there is no need to get all angry about it to the point of put words in my mouth furthermore as far as science putting junk instruction in the trash bin, as of today the junk instruction has happenned and will continue to happen the teaching process currently alive today and tomorrow cannot and will not stop or change just because you said so, you dont have that kind of juice!

Cheers big fella.

 

[hp12c]

That's a flip to me albeit a well timed flip.I see about 99.99% of hackers doing it and about 99.99% of good players don't.So what do we do?Tell that 99.99% of hackers their technique is perfectly ok and tell the good players to start flipping it more?That makes a whole lot of sense.

We don't know what shot Wild Bill was playing here anyway and one photo is not conclusive of anthing.

Yup, Im glad im not the only one who sees that.

 

[Brian Manzella]

I am THRILLED that some see rotation about the coupling point as a flip.

Keep dragging that handle.....

 

[mrose]

Tiger knew:


Tiger underwent major swing reconstruction - Golf - ESPN

That's a great article.

"Instead, the disclosure of changing the swing begged the question: Why in the heck would he do that? How could the player who from 1999 to 2002 had produced arguably the greatest golf ever played want to change his swing? It was like Michelangelo going back to chisel a more impressive six-pack on David."

Some parallels could be drawn with what's going on around here. Striving to get better no matter how good it was already.

 

[ej20]

I think also some clarification is needed in regards to the hands reaching low point before impact and then rising into impact.

I study videos very closely and it has come to my attention that this does indeed happen but mostly with players who have a lot of accumulator lag and trigger delay.If you tend to have significant sweep release,the hands reach low point at impact.I don't think there is anything wrong with this either if you base it on anectodel evidence.

Look at Tom Watson.His hands don't look to rise into impact.

Tom Watson Iron Front View - YouTube

 

[Michael Finney]

when it's all said and done, we'll realize that the "points" of interest will not be anatomical, but geometric...

 

[spktho]

Too much roll and too soft of a base on the 6-iron.

Too much roll of the hands--twisting of the shaft? and what does too soft of a base mean?

 

[jay2010]

this thread: over / under 60 pages after MJ's part 3 video?

 

[footwedge]

this thread: over / under 60 pages after MJ's part 3 video?

Over. Especially if everyone votes over or under.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Let me say this, there is nothing wrong with dragging the handle.

Nothing wrong with having the club up your left arm.

Just not optimum.

I guess you'd have HAD TO learned not to drag, then to drag, then not to drag to really know.

And those who have....know what I mean.

 

[jeffy]

Wild Bill, nice, I dont know what shot he was trying to produce in this photo array, but that looks like a flip to me.

Can't tell definitively because the image of impact is skipped, but no question he is flipping after impact. Not at all unusual; number two player in the world flips at impact and beyond.

I haven't scrolled through all 40 pages to see if this has already been linked, but a year ago a couple of guys with a Casio catalogued the various release types employed on tour. Some flip, some roll, and some "drive/hold". All three "work" at the highest level of competitive golf.

 

[hp12c]

Let me say this, there is nothing wrong with dragging the handle.

Nothing wrong with having the club up your left arm.

Just not optimum.

I guess you'd have HAD TO learned not to drag, then to drag, then not to drag to really know.

And those who have....know what I mean.

Yup!

 

[jeffy]

Really??

Look at the video I did with all the great players.





Geez....

Big problem is that you need much more than 30fps to accurately evaluate a player's release type; otherwise they all look the same.

 

[jeffy]

Here is a couple of shots from a 20 minute practice session this afternoon.

The driver swing has MUCH better "stabilized body" to release against.

The "lined up for impact" impact of mine visible in the back and froths of the 6-iron shot, is unlike any other impact pic of mine ever taken.


And I was rushing....


Too much roll and too soft of a base on the 6-iron.


But the hands are pretty good.

<iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/28333823?color=c9ff23" width="800" height="450" frameborder="0"></iframe>

Yep, you're a roller. Not surprising with that weak grip...sorry, I meant "neutral"...

 

[mgjordan]

Hurricane clean up is over, the beach house has been water vac'd. Hurricane did a lot of damage on the northern tip of Long island as many still don't have power there. Anywho, the Explosive Golf Show part 3 on the subject will be posted this week {wednesday night} at 8pm

Lots of questions to answer and I will provide a whole slew of data and some imaging. All of this material is supposed to come out in a published work but I feel enticed to delve some more.

On a side note:
Everyone keeps asking me Mike - WHAT THE HELL IS SO NOVEL ABOUT YOUR SHOWS??? Listen folks, where in golf instruction has anyone ever focused in on the couple of the hands on the club??? There are so many references to the butt of the club and the right forefinger pressure point but 'The Couple' point came as a result of my own digging. If its published somewhere I would love to know, want to read what they say. Probably Penner discussed it the most... Focusing on the path of that COUPLE POINT is pretty dam revolutionary as far as I am concerned, anyone else agree???

As for the Homer Kelley loons who are harassing me -- Thats enough guys, leave me alone. You guys have lost all momentum and credibility. The icons of tgm are doing it such as disservice it has become a borderline comedy act. I don't see how anyone can argue the fact that TGM is a proponent of a same RPM Rhythm of the left arm and club, they are a proponent of striking down and out to low point!!! 100%.. Brian stood up at the last summit he attended and showed the bunch a pitch shots that he sees on tour where there is a little toss and he was lashed out at and was told the TOUR PLAYERS SHOULD KNOW BETTER. The system promotes a - STRAIGHT PLANE LINE - DOWN AND OUT TO LOW POINT HANDS - don't start now saying the aim point really means this or hinging really means this etc... Have you ever done a you tube search for the Basic Motion Cirriculum or Acquired Motion Ciriculum??? I suggest everyone take a peek and hopefully you won't choke on your popcorn. I was a GSED, was asked by Sally Kelley to rewrite the book so the masses could understand, she offered me the book for $100,000 and I would have had any and all autonomy to change anything I wanted. It was not worth that in my estimation and UNSALVAGEABLE!


The brain learning people:
yikes! dissect a golfing cadaver yet??


The biomechanics folks..

X Factor Stretch - Kinematic Sequence - Rate of Recoil - Physical Assesment -- all very interesting and nice stuff. I am adding 3D motion capture to my golf school - can't wait. Love my new associate Dave Kuck .. NOT THE ANSWER THOUGH -- It's a nice supplement to the study of the movement of the club

The movement of the inanimate object {the club} is the point of interest.

The stats of views are over 30,000 between this and my website - that might double when show #3 comes out wednesday night - stay tuned... stats galore coming

The only thing I have ever read about the "couple point" was from George Hibbard in his Perfect Impact stuff. He called it "the fulcrum". I believe he proposed that the golf swing was "around" the fulcrum and that was what the clubhead swung around. I'm sure if you search the archives of this forum or any other you should be able to find his postings about it. I can't remember what he said because his posts were so long and wordy that I lost interest.

 

[carland]

when it's all said and done, we'll realize that the "points" of interest will not be anatomical, but geometric...

Sure seems like the focus now is more on what the club does during the swing than what the golfer's body is doing.

 

[jeffy]

Oh, I see, an echo chamber: no new information allowed, even if it is 100% impartial and factual. So lame. And I bought you dinner, not once, but twice! Shame on me.