Michael Jacobs
Super Moderator
Thanks Virtuoso, appreciate the complement.. I wouldn't recommend closing the gap for that golfer either.. he would need many other adjustments
The Release w/Brian Manzella & Michael Jacobs
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Thanks Virtuoso, appreciate the complement.. I wouldn't recommend closing the gap for that golfer either.. he would need many other adjustments
lia41985
New member
Michael,
Are the two shaft modes basically a lateral flexion and a torsional force? Those are crude terms that I'm sort of throwing together based on bits I've read and seen here and there but what I think of as the two modes would be one, the shaft flexing back and forth lengthwise, and two, the shaft twisting about itself. It would then seem that the well-timed golfer would sequence his motion such that the shaft does this double kick to create the sought after D plane. Or not...?
Virtuosos,
I really respect you and the insightful posts you've made. I apologize for getting righteous. I have much to learn from you and have become perhaps overly sensitive to what I perceive is some posters' dismissiveness of ideas that are the product of others' passion and hard work (tangibly, time and money). All the best.
dbl,
Thank you!
Are the two shaft modes basically a lateral flexion and a torsional force? Those are crude terms that I'm sort of throwing together based on bits I've read and seen here and there but what I think of as the two modes would be one, the shaft flexing back and forth lengthwise, and two, the shaft twisting about itself. It would then seem that the well-timed golfer would sequence his motion such that the shaft does this double kick to create the sought after D plane. Or not...?
Virtuosos,
I really respect you and the insightful posts you've made. I apologize for getting righteous. I have much to learn from you and have become perhaps overly sensitive to what I perceive is some posters' dismissiveness of ideas that are the product of others' passion and hard work (tangibly, time and money). All the best.
dbl,
Thank you!
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Michael Finney
New
interestingly enough, sasho mackenzie's papers on shaft bending modes do not account for clubface rotation around the shaft - due to the shafts "torque rating"....or torsional stiffness rating...
mackenzie concentrates on lead/lag and toe up/toe down....and their corresponding effects on delivered loft and club head speed
but as the titleist engineers mentioned when asked about puring shafts...the shaft bending phenomena occur in 3D....
after reading this stuff it's amazing that we ever hit straight shots
mackenzie concentrates on lead/lag and toe up/toe down....and their corresponding effects on delivered loft and club head speed
but as the titleist engineers mentioned when asked about puring shafts...the shaft bending phenomena occur in 3D....
after reading this stuff it's amazing that we ever hit straight shots
lia41985
New member
Thanks for this, Michael. Yes, it seems that some can time it like Swiss watch makers and others like we woke up on the wrong side of the bed with a bad hangover. Feeling the timing by feeling the shaft is something you really see in the hickory era players and it makes me wonder what kind of training aid a whippy shafted practice club would be--not a Medicus, mind you
MJ:
Trying to figure this out... please help if i am off base here (wouldn't be the first time)
1. with more forward lean if the path of the "couple" was not steep low to high and you "lined it up" you would stick the clubhead in the ground
1a. with that same forward lean and the path of the "couple" moving low to high as the club lines up you get optimal speed?
SO... what controls the path of the couple/forward lean and the timing of when the clubhead moves out towards "line up" at impact?? The path of the couple is not determined by how you move your hands per se, my bet is it is controlled most by your shoulders... am i warm?
I am envisioning this forward lean as everything still being lined up and just the shoulder complex (not sure how to describe this) being ahead and moving up as opposed to forward lean coming from the hands being out of line in a "hit the box" move.
Michael Jacobs
Super Moderator
welshdentist
New
Michael,
My wife is off scratch and her coach is trying to get her to keep her left heel on the ground through impact, bad idea?
She has a real neutral ball flight, occasional push or hook....
Michael Jacobs
Super Moderator
A whole ton of lady golfers go heels up into impact... one of the biggest travesties of a generation of golf teachers was teaching the ladies to stay put on the ground. If she is nearing higher speeds and "LOAD OF THE CLUB" is high she will need to recruit more body. Men obviously create a much bigger load on the club than ladies but the club itself can weigh in excess of 75 pounds for a lady golfer and they may need to recruit much more help from the center of their body which may create a 'HEELS UP IMPACT'
You will see many awkward body positioning on the lady golfers in and around the hitting area as they are recruiting what they have to move the extreme load on the club. Think back to Laura Davies, she maximized all the load on the club by going super heels up. As long as the 'COUPLE' Point of the club maintains its sounds path the golfer can recruit what is needed from the body
So the heels up phenomenon is a result of the body reacting to the effective weight of the swinging clubhead (see it alot in young golfers, and longdrive guys as well). Could it also be related to a greater effort to move the couple point up more vigorously in order to create more speed (parametric acceleration)?
BTW, is that Babe? And who is the male golfer?
Michael Jacobs
Super Moderator
My BOY!!!
1: You are very close -- that is when the golfer smacks the ground or YIPS!!!!!
1a: I wouldn't say optimal speed, I would say a better timed strike
You recruit your whole body to move the couple... the majority of work is done in the thoracic - Lumbar - Right & Left Hip... the hands surround the couple so they are the key to aligning
I am not totally sure what you are asking in the last paragraph... the more forward lean its offset by the now upward move of the couple as it has past its low point. This is how we get a small angle of attack and a significantly lower dynamic loft. I think you are asking how the forward lean is achieved?? You can find volumes of info on forward lean
Michael Jacobs
Super Moderator
You hit it right on the head Big Will... Exactly my point !!!!! THANK YOU!!!
Guy is Bobby Locke - No idea who the woman is
birly-shirly
New
Isn't that natural though? For one thing, people want to relate anything new to what they already know. Plus, I think it's great when a new idea comes along and joins up a few existing dots.
BTW - what was your beef with the "brain learning" people? I like that you're dealing in what high end golfers actually do, but personally, I'm usually more intrigued by explanations of how and why experts learn to do what they do - rather than a bare mechanical explanation. Happy to have both though!
Thanks to Michael and Brian for the best thread of the year. I've been to the range 4 times since this thread started.
I have been following the hints about parametric acceleration, had read the Miura paper and one of Nesbit's, and was working on using it in the tour pitch after a remark Brian made at a lesson. But I just wasn't doing it correctly. I had briefly flirted with trying to hit more up as a way to lower my AoA, with mixed success after reading comments here earlier this year.
I think I didn't need the info on wide-to-wide, but the concept of a CRP and its path/shape/location is applied golf gold, for me at least.
Now I know why I was having trouble squaring my driver at times. Now I am thinking about why when I would play really well all the acceleration seemed to feel to me that it happened just before the ball (but I couldn't duplicate it from day to day). I am getting the toss and release of club, which is the part I have struggled with as a dragging underplaner at times the last two years. I think my high spinny out-to-in path tendency was not at all pivot-related in the way I thought it was pivot related.
I am thinking about Grober's charts on when acceleration happens in hackers vs. lower handicaps vs. pros and why that is.
Who would have ever guessed that over time a golf forum could present such interesting applied-science-food-for-thought and help for a golf game?
I have been following the hints about parametric acceleration, had read the Miura paper and one of Nesbit's, and was working on using it in the tour pitch after a remark Brian made at a lesson. But I just wasn't doing it correctly. I had briefly flirted with trying to hit more up as a way to lower my AoA, with mixed success after reading comments here earlier this year.
I think I didn't need the info on wide-to-wide, but the concept of a CRP and its path/shape/location is applied golf gold, for me at least.
Now I know why I was having trouble squaring my driver at times. Now I am thinking about why when I would play really well all the acceleration seemed to feel to me that it happened just before the ball (but I couldn't duplicate it from day to day). I am getting the toss and release of club, which is the part I have struggled with as a dragging underplaner at times the last two years. I think my high spinny out-to-in path tendency was not at all pivot-related in the way I thought it was pivot related.
I am thinking about Grober's charts on when acceleration happens in hackers vs. lower handicaps vs. pros and why that is.
Who would have ever guessed that over time a golf forum could present such interesting applied-science-food-for-thought and help for a golf game?
Matt Bryda
New
Could this information explain the Rory Mclroy "stopping/backing up/continuing on hips, at and through impact?
Low to higher coupling point reaction?
Just a thought!
ok, I've read everything and watched the videos. I think conceptually I'm getting what you are saying, however, I'm struggling with the idea of no force across the shaft. Somehow you have to move the club, so with this idea, what moves the club. I don't want to get into swinging or hitting.... but how do you move the club?? Ie: are you pulling with the left side (can't do that, we don't want to drag the mop) apparently we don't want to hold off on the release and want a horizontal hinging action around the coupling point, so do we push with the right hand to achieve this(but we don't want to apply force across the shaft)
Bare with me, I'm trying to get there...
Bare with me, I'm trying to get there...
lia41985
New member
There it is. Thanks, Michael.
The club squares itself if you let it. There's a reason why I referred to players like Lindsay Gahm and John Daly as hammer throwers. And when people mocked Natalie Gulbis's swing by saying it looked like the club swung her I was hoping there would be a time when we might have confirmation that this wasn't in fact a bad thing.
There's something about this all that brings to mind Tai Chi.
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Amazing how many handle draggers there are out there, despite the whole idea of dragging the handle being absolutely absurd to any normal thinking person. How in the heck did you guys ever think that that was going to work? It is as good an example of brainwashing as you will find anywhere. And I am not rying to antagonise, just stating the obvious facts. Clearly this is a great example of the human condition: the sheep mentality, strength in numbers etc etc.
Let me see now: nobody noticed that the club shaft ROTATED through impact? As everything that rotates must rotate around a POINT (that's pretty obvious too!). So you guys really didn't notice this until someone told you? Holy sh!t, no wonder the world's financial system is going to pot....
Let me see now: nobody noticed that the club shaft ROTATED through impact? As everything that rotates must rotate around a POINT (that's pretty obvious too!). So you guys really didn't notice this until someone told you? Holy sh!t, no wonder the world's financial system is going to pot....
Funny to me you say this Lia... I spoke with a former collegiate hammer thrower the other day about my golf swing (Full disclosure: Iron Mike Jacobs is my Sherpa on my golf swing journey)... Interesting chat we had.
Michael spoke to me about these concepts in our last lesson a few weeks back and i still have a ways to go with other pieces of my puzzle, but i will say that if you incorporate these ideas, crazy stuff happens like a double bogey b/c you hit a 144yd shot into the woods 20 yds deep of the target
. So, i thought i was doing okay with 140 yd 9 irons prior to this, but i should warn you if you admire Justin Leonard and Zach Johnson for their guile and feel it is great advantage to hit first into every green, then i would erase all knowledge of this thread and Michael's videos from your memory banks.
natep
New
I've been saying for years that IMO the left wrist should be allowed to bend after impact to facilitate a free-wheeling clubhead and was ridiculed everywhere I brought it up as being a "LOL flipper". The belief in the post impact flat left wrist is strong and widely held.
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