The Release w/Brian Manzella & Michael Jacobs

[wulsy]

Thank goodness there are still some folks out there who still have the ability to think for themselves. Maybe the world can yet be saved. Good on ye, natep!

 

[drewyallop]

Metaphor

I think good metaphors are essential to good teaching. One here from Michael Jacobs hits the exact note: let the swing "recruit the body".

Drew

 

[wulsy]

Come to think of it I remember playing in a tournament a couple of years ago where I was paired with a really good player who was plagued with a hook. After the rounds we we were talking about how many fanatastic shots he had hit and how he was still over par after 36 because of the occasional snapper. I told him maybe it would help to release it differently, which involved bending the left wrist more. He was taking it all in when his buddy came up (also a really good player) and told him I was talking shite, that nobody in their right mind would want to bend the left wrist.

Absolutely amazing how people can be brainwashed into thinking something in spite of all evidence to the contrary.

 

[pokerlife]

There it is. Thanks, Michael.

The club squares itself if you let it. There's a reason why I referred to players like Lindsay Gahm and John Daly as hammer throwers. And when people mocked Natalie Gulbis's swing by saying it looked like the club swung her I was hoping there would be a time when we might have confirmation that this wasn't in fact a bad thing.

There's something about this all that brings to mind Tai Chi.

i guess i had it figured out last year.. Now just gota find that feel again .. Click the word decision below to see thread

http://www.brianmanzella.com/golfing-discussions/13957-decision.html

 

[dschultz6072]

Thanks for this, Michael. Yes, it seems that some can time it like Swiss watch makers and others like we woke up on the wrong side of the bed with a bad hangover. Feeling the timing by feeling the shaft is something you really see in the hickory era players and it makes me wonder what kind of training aid a whippy shafted practice club would be--not a Medicus, mind you

The Whippy Tempomaster: Build a swing that will drive your buddies crazy.

 

[footwedge]

I've been saying for years that IMO the left wrist should be allowed to bend after impact to facilitate a free-wheeling clubhead and was ridiculed everywhere I brought it up as being a "LOL flipper". The belief in the post impact flat left wrist is strong and widely held.

What's interesting about that Nate is if the ball gets it's flight orders somewhere between impact and seperation how can a bent lead wrist or a better yet a flat wrist even matter when the ball is already off the face and waving bye, bye. I mean your wrist could fall off your arm at that point and it wouldn't matter to the ball, although it might be a problem at dinner time.

 

[natep]

What's interesting about that Nate is if the ball gets it's flight orders somewhere between impact and seperation how can a bent lead wrist or a better yet a flat wrist even matter when the ball is already off the face and waving bye, bye. I mean your wrist could fall off your arm at that point and it wouldn't matter to the ball, although it might be a problem at dinner time.

Yes, I agree. And its my opinion that a post impact flat wrist that is obtained thru a negative wrist torque is detrimental to a free-wheeling clubhead.

 

[footwedge]

Yes, I agree. And its my opinion that a post impact flat wrist that is obtained thru a negative wrist torque is detrimental to a free-wheeling clubhead.

Would that be also applicable at the dinner table with a fork? Just kidding, I agree, but all of a sudden I got the munchies.

 

[dschultz6072]

So maybe we can listen to the pros when they tell us not to steer the club instead of pretending the way to hit a good shot is to ingrain a steer like the pros.

"Hey, mister teacher...this move you're having me do feels really forced and very unnatural..." "It's ok, just keep doing it until it feels natural." "Ok, you're the boss."

 

[footwedge]

So maybe we can listen to the pros when they tell us not to steer the club instead of pretending the way to hit a good shot is to ingrain a steer like the pros.

"Hey, mister teacher...this move you're having me do feels really forced and very unnatural..." "It's ok, just keep doing it until it feels natural." "Ok, you're the boss."

I kind of remember that conversation but it wasn't a golf lesson. Oh! I was the boss...lol.

 

[Bigwill]

ok, I've read everything and watched the videos. I think conceptually I'm getting what you are saying, however, I'm struggling with the idea of no force across the shaft. Somehow you have to move the club, so with this idea, what moves the club. I don't want to get into swinging or hitting.... but how do you move the club?? Ie: are you pulling with the left side (can't do that, we don't want to drag the mop) apparently we don't want to hold off on the release and want a horizontal hinging action around the coupling point, so do we push with the right hand to achieve this(but we don't want to apply force across the shaft)

Bare with me, I'm trying to get there...

Remember, the force across the shaft figures that Mike put up were taken through impact, and are a percentage of the FATS produced earlier in the swing.

 

[tbone1065]

Gee Wulsey, please tell me all the secrets of the world.

G

Amazing how many handle draggers there are out there, despite the whole idea of dragging the handle being absolutely absurd to any normal thinking person. How in the heck did you guys ever think that that was going to work? It is as good an example of brainwashing as you will find anywhere. And I am not rying to antagonise, just stating the obvious facts. Clearly this is a great example of the human condition: the sheep mentality, strength in numbers etc etc.

Let me see now: nobody noticed that the club shaft ROTATED through impact? As everything that rotates must rotate around a POINT (that's pretty obvious too!). So you guys really didn't notice this until someone told you? Holy sh!t, no wonder the world's financial system is going to pot....

 

[Michael Jacobs]

So the heels up phenomenon is a result of the body reacting to the effective weight of the swinging clubhead (see it alot in young golfers, and longdrive guys as well). Could it also be related to a greater effort to move the couple point up more vigorously in order to create more speed (parametric acceleration)?

I should also add the point that there is also a strong move from the golfer to maintain the extreme timing speed, many feel that would out weigh the added poundage the golfer is holding onto.

Remember, the force across the shaft figures that Mike put up were taken through impact, and are a percentage of the FATS produced earlier in the swing.

There is a lot earlier on... The expert player had 248 newtons of Tangential Force, with it peaking at 100% in the mid stages of the downswing, when the body best positioned itself for max force in that direction

 

[Matt 4-L]

...There is a lot earlier on... The expert player had 248 newtons of Tangential Force, with it peaking at 100% in the mid stages of the downswing, when the body best positioned itself for max force in that direction

Approximately what position are the hands when the FATS are first gone?

 

[jbrunk]

This guy does it well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7BREaOsuAA

The carry and free release are beautiful.

Here you can see the wide to wider/tangential motion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3m5yHY0ryU

Lia, thanks for posting that up. That is some good stuff. For some reason this vid along with 'Kevin Shields 6 iron DTL' brings out the obvious differences in my swing and a great player.

 

[Robbohank]

Gotta love the random swing analysis request that gets thrown into a thread like this.

The greatness of internet golf forums!!

 

[Brian Manzella]

ANSWERS - ANSWERS - ANSWERS

That is a perfectly executed slap hinge release.He needs no lessons,just more practice.LOL

As MJ has said, this is a COUPLING POINT PATH idea.

That hacker's CPP is really bad.

...Brian, do you want rid of your FLW at impact. How much twisting is taking place during the shaft rotation?

This whole thread is NOT about BENDING the left wrist, this whole thread is about the COUPLING POINT PATH. But, you might wind up with a great CPP if you TRY To bend it through impact.

Brian's sample swing was not, we shall assume, burdened by trying to maintain a FLW...

I was trying to hit the ball with the clubhead and NOT drag the handle.

I don't know if the left side is necessarily the secret to great golf. If you can get the left side to pull you and the club to a certain point so that you can throw with the right, that sounds good to me. But the right side needs to throw.

Golf is a TWO-SIDED game.

As for Cotton,I am still waiting for some clear pics or videos of him slap hinging like Wild Bill,all chicken wing and 45 deg bent left wrist.There are no videos on youtube and nothing with google search.What he thought he did and what he really did may not be the same.

I will post some tonight.

You might be surprised.

You will burn in hell for that flip

Keeping right wrist bent contributed to yips for me.....holding onto the bend too much is deadly, and most people misinterpret it that way from TGM. Even TGM teachers

I did the TGM thing wrong, but it was wrong for me anyway

Anyone a bit nervy and holding onto it for too long will have to panic flip and back out.
It's weird to thing the intention to lag it can mean no lag. Nice paradox there...

The paradox is the TRICK.

ok, so if I have this right, we're discussing a horizontal bending and unbending of the wrists, as opposed to a vertical bending and roll.

Yup.

I'm no expert in golf, but my vocation is teaching. Reading the entirety of this thread confirms what an incredible teacher Brian is, along with his other instructors.

Oh, and Lia is an outstanding student, who is welcome to enroll in any of my PhD seminars - anytime. Some great clarifications to us other students reading this thread - thanks for those.

Lia gets a gold star.

I get a very nice compliment.

Thanks.

No,just explaining that you can still work the ball low with a sweep release.

Yup.

...what controls the path of the couple/forward lean and the timing of when the clubhead moves out towards "line up" at impact?? The path of the couple is not determined by how you move your hands per se, my bet is it is controlled most by your shoulders... am i warm?

Arm swing is a factor as well.

So the heels up phenomenon is a result of the body reacting to the effective weight of the swinging clubhead (see it alot in young golfers, and longdrive guys as well). Could it also be related to a greater effort to move the couple point up more vigorously in order to create more speed (parametric acceleration)?

And to help squaring up the club.

Thanks to Michael and Brian for the best thread of the year. I've been to the range 4 times since this thread started....

...Who would have ever guessed that over time a golf forum could present such interesting applied-science-food-for-thought and help for a golf game?

Only science has the answers we are looking for.

Most golf pros are full of shhhhhhhh.....

Could this information explain the Rory Mclroy "stopping/backing up/continuing on hips, at and through impact?
Low to higher coupling point reaction?
Just a thought!

You need to to be stable under the toss.

....but how do you move the club??

How do you throw a ball, a frisbee, or hit a hockey wrist shot?

Amazing how many handle draggers there are out there, despite the whole idea of dragging the handle being absolutely absurd to any normal thinking person. How in the heck did you guys ever think that that was going to work?

It was SUPPOSED TO BE science.

What's interesting about that Nate is if the ball gets it's flight orders somewhere between impact and seperation how can a bent lead wrist or a better yet a flat wrist even matter when the ball is already off the face and waving bye, bye. I mean your wrist could fall off your arm at that point and it wouldn't matter to the ball, although it might be a problem at dinner time.

It absolutely DOESN'T matter.

Yes, I agree. And its my opinion that a post impact flat wrist that is obtained thru a negative wrist torque is detrimental to a free-wheeling clubhead.

No doubt.

 

[Michael Jacobs]

Approximately what position are the hands when the FATS are first gone?

The reporting of the forces and torques on the club is labeled into 3 phases on the downswing. The reports showed a maximum in phase 2 and then a 0% at the instant of impact. This 0% at the instant of impact shows that a so called 'coasting in impact' ...

All beneficial force across the shaft exists without disturbing the orbit of the couple point and even the left arm for that matter. The poor aiming point people did the disservice by thrusting their left hand and arm to a supposed forward aim point and disturbed the clubs orbit {Poor technique}

Some even took a shot at a aim point interpretation behind the ball .... if there was any aim point at all it would be the ball!

 

[Brian Manzella]

Sorry I took a video and a couple of posts down.

We don't talk about certain people here.

Thanks,

BManz

 

[jenhaoyen]

All I can say is, Brian has the patience to explain. Some of the things that were posted here drive me crazy!!