The Release w/Brian Manzella & Michael Jacobs

[Jim Kobylinski]

I'm at work and can't watch the videos (but did watch the original MJ video posted) and would just like to add that while trying to achieve all kinds of forward lean has ruined many (including me) it isn't necessarily a bad thing to flippers to try and perform SOME to get them to not flip it anymore at least imo. They need to learn that some lean is required.

 

[mandrin]

The motion of the hands, at the transition, described in 'Such a Little Secret' by John W. Barrett, is very similar to the one explained by Michael Jacobs in his video – 'Golf Show Part 2 Impact Low Point'. Interesting that a tiny fleeting motion of the hands during transition, rather against intuition, is paramount for good golf.

Some paragraphs from the book to give an idea -

'' Of all the lines of direction made available by the ability of the arms arms hands at the top to move wherever they wish, that from the butt end of the rubber grip straight down to the ball is the favorite of millions. It is as destructive as a dozen other equally erroneous lines of directions, all of which carry the hands and clubhead to the front of the player too early.

Assuming that the backswing has been completed to the best of the player's ability, the direction in which the hands must be guided is exactly that in which the end of the rubber grip is pointing when at the top of the backswing.

There must be no conscious effort, only guidance in the direction indicated by the end of the grip. It should certainly not be pointing at the ball and for the first couple of inches will not necessarily be pointing in the downward direction.

On no account must the butt end be thrown from the top down along a direct line to the ball or anything approaching it.''

 

[dbl]

Jacob's part2 video on page 3 = great!

eta: oh, right above!

 

[Todd Dugan]

Right. The hands should do nothing conscious at the start of the downswing.

Random thoughts...............When the distance from the left shoulder to the hands remains constant, then the hands can NEITHER be brought closer to the left shoulder, NOR farther away. I've never heard of anyone advocating bringing the hands in closer to the body at the start of the dowswing. The simple reason that the hand path on the dowswing is inside of the backswing hand path is because the axis of the torso has moved forward. This was clearly shown in SFTPS.

Now on the approach, is MJ is really advocating intentionally pulling the hand up earlier? Surely this will destroy the average player. Surely no great player is consciously doing this. Again, the hands reach their lowest point near the upper sternum because that's the axis of the dominant system that is moving them. Virtually all great ball-strikers are extending the arms to a both straight position. This extends the lowest point of the hand arc farther forward than if there were less straightening. I've got afew ladies in my Senior clinic who pull the hands in REAL early, so that both arms are well bent at impact. They don't hit down and don't hit far.


But I'm confused, MJ says to push the hands farther from the body at the start of the downswing (which, again, isn't possible if the left arm is already straight). But then he says to pull the handle up early approaching impact. Which is it, push out or pull in? The only saving grace might be that, by trying to push out early, you continue pushing out and never actually or consciously pull in.

 

[Michael Jacobs]

The motion of the hands, at the transition, described in 'Such a Little Secret' by John W. Barrett, is very similar to the one explained by Michael Jacobs in his video – 'Golf Show Part 2 Impact Low Point'. Interesting that a tiny fleeting motion of the hands during transition, rather against intuition, is paramount for good golf.

Some paragraphs from the book to give an idea -

'' Of all the lines of direction made available by the ability of the arms arms hands at the top to move wherever they wish, that from the butt end of the rubber grip straight down to the ball is the favorite of millions. It is as destructive as a dozen other equally erroneous lines of directions, all of which carry the hands and clubhead to the front of the player too early.

Assuming that the backswing has been completed to the best of the player's ability, the direction in which the hands must be guided is exactly that in which the end of the rubber grip is pointing when at the top of the backswing.

There must be no conscious effort, only guidance in the direction indicated by the end of the grip. It should certainly not be pointing at the ball and for the first couple of inches will not necessarily be pointing in the downward direction.

On no account must the butt end be thrown from the top down along a direct line to the ball or anything approaching it.''

Mandrin,

Just won a $10 bet with a friend that you would chime in on this one... Knew you would like it!

 

[bgoodyear]

But I'm confused, MJ says to push the hands farther from the body at the start of the downswing (which, again, isn't possible if the left arm is already straight).

I think he's saying that this is the feel which will produce a wider downswing arc.

 

[dcg1952]

And how does that differ from extensor action from my Golfing Machine teachings in the past?

 

[leon]

Nice video. The transition move looks very fiddle drill-like. Is there any difference, or is it more that the low point for hands and clubhead have been mapped and shown to be somewhat independent? I guess it is a development on parametric acceleration, which has discussed a lot in the context of the tour pitch. Does this mean it is equally valid for all shots/clubs (i.e. wedges up to driver).

Also reminded me a bit of Brian's post below from http://www.brianmanzella.com/golfing-discussions/15916-where-does-pivot-go-manzella-matrix.html.

<iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/27840338?color=c9ff23" width="640" height="376" frameborder="0"></iframe>

 

[birly-shirly]

The motion of the hands, at the transition, described in 'Such a Little Secret' by John W. Barrett, is very similar to the one explained by Michael Jacobs in his video – 'Golf Show Part 2 Impact Low Point'.

Hi Mandrin - I'm just curious how you came by that book. Isn't that the one written by a keen amateur from Aberdeen in Scotland? I think that's where I bought my copy - and I think I formed the impression that it was practically self-published and probably not widely distributed. Maybe it was a blockbuster in other parts of the world - what is it they say about a prophet in his own land...?

 

[BertramSterling]

Now on the approach, is MJ is really advocating intentionally pulling the hand up earlier? Surely this will destroy the average player. Surely no great player is consciously doing this. Again, the hands reach their lowest point near the upper sternum because that's the axis of the dominant system that is moving them. Virtually all great ball-strikers are extending the arms to a both straight position. This extends the lowest point of the hand arc farther forward than if there were less straightening. I've got afew ladies in my Senior clinic who pull the hands in REAL early, so that both arms are well bent at impact. They don't hit down and don't hit far.

I just took it as the hands reaching the lowest point of their arc before the ball is contacted. And, this being the case, they then continue both upwards and inwards. But the club continues downwards. While this may sound obvious, some of the aiming point type stuff suggests (to me at least) that the hands carry on both downwards and outwards until the strike (in sequence with the club face, if you like), to create forward lean. This would seem to lend itself to the club being forced onto a more inside-out path, because you are artificially 'reaching' out to this false low point.

Funnily enough I have shanked a few balls trying for some extra forward lean, so this is how I've interpreted it...

 

[wulsy]

Not trying to be a smart ar$e here, but why o why did it take yoi guys so long to come to this rather apparent and obvious conclusion? Did TGM make you blind?

 

[footwedge]

Not trying to be a smart ar$e here, but why o why did it take yoi guys so long to come to this rather apparent and obvious conclusion? Did TGM make you blind?

Sometimes the hardest thing to see is the apparently obvious.

 

[gmbtempe]

Doesn't the handle have to move in and up because the left arm is tied to the left shoulder which is moving left and up in the late downswing?

 

[footwedge]

Right. The hands should do nothing conscious at the start of the downswing.

Random thoughts...............When the distance from the left shoulder to the hands remains constant, then the hands can NEITHER be brought closer to the left shoulder, NOR farther away. I've never heard of anyone advocating bringing the hands in closer to the body at the start of the dowswing. The simple reason that the hand path on the dowswing is inside of the backswing hand path is because the axis of the torso has moved forward. This was clearly shown in SFTPS.

Now on the approach, is MJ is really advocating intentionally pulling the hand up earlier? Surely this will destroy the average player. Surely no great player is consciously doing this. Again, the hands reach their lowest point near the upper sternum because that's the axis of the dominant system that is moving them. Virtually all great ball-strikers are extending the arms to a both straight position. This extends the lowest point of the hand arc farther forward than if there were less straightening. I've got afew ladies in my Senior clinic who pull the hands in REAL early, so that both arms are well bent at impact. They don't hit down and don't hit far.


But I'm confused, MJ says to push the hands farther from the body at the start of the downswing (which, again, isn't possible if the left arm is already straight). But then he says to pull the handle up early approaching impact. Which is it, push out or pull in? The only saving grace might be that, by trying to push out early, you continue pushing out and never actually or consciously pull in.

Left shoulder joint allows the hands to come closer to your head and then also farther and wider away at the transition even if the arm is straight.

 

[birly-shirly]

Not trying to be a smart ar$e here, but why o why did it take yoi guys so long to come to this rather apparent and obvious conclusion? Did TGM make you blind?

Am I imagining having read either Homer or Ben Doyle saying that the optimal handpath, from the point of view of preserving lag, is along the line of the shaft?

I can certainly think of a few "swing the clubhead" fans who will like this. They've been fighting the allegation for years that they teach a flip.

 

[footwedge]

Doesn't the handle have to move in and up because the left arm is tied to the left shoulder which is moving left and up in the late downswing?

Isn't that a good reason for the release that M.J. is talking about?

 

[joep]

This is how I use to swing and was told it was wrong. I hooked up with tgm and went crazy trying to swing with forward hands, I wasted 7 yrs and mucho bucks. Now what?????????????????

 

[Tophdad]

video?

Anyone have any video shot from the angle that MJ suggests in the video is better to view the handpath?

I feel a little lost in how to lineup the club like MJ shows without flipping at impact. I've gone from trying to "hit the box" to the full swivel...release still something of a mystery to me.

 

[Todd Dugan]

Left shoulder joint allows the hands to come closer to your head and then also farther and wider away at the transition even if the arm is straight.

OK. But the axis of the left arm swing is at the joint. And so if you keep your left arm fairly straight, as virtually all great ball-strikers do, then the only way to create a wider radius of the hand arc at the start of the downswing is to swing the arm from the joint across the chest. And that's just not the way great ball-strikers are beginning the downswing. The left arm doesn't start swinging forward from the shoulder joint until much later in the downswing, and even then, not that much. This is why the torso is much more open at impact in the swing of many greats.....the left arm is still well across the chest.

 

[Todd Dugan]

V1PRO is good software for examing the low point of the hand path. Here is Tiger extending that low point all the way up to the left armpit. This is because Tiger has a lot of forward left arm swing into impact with less shoulder rotation. The guys who get the shoulders real open at impact typically have a hand low point closer to the upper sternum.