The Release w/Brian Manzella & Michael Jacobs

[ej20]

One thing that occurs to me: Didn't Hogan down-arch pretty severely coming into impact? So, although his left wrist is still flat past impact, it is nonetheless in the process of bending from a pretty severe bow.

So, the fact that his wrist is flat doesn't debunk the argument that the left wrist can/should be bending through impact or shortly thereafter, and the right wrist straightening. Hogan's position simply looks different than Wild Bill's, for example, because of where he started.

This make any sense to anyone else?

If your left wrist is still flat after impact,how can it be in the process of bending through impact.It doesn't make sense.

Does Hogan's left wrist stay flat to the end of his backswing?Of course not.It bends a bit later than Wild Bill's and in golf terms that little bit is a heck of a lot.

The illusion that Hogan's and other players left wrist breaking down and bending is due to the clubhead passing the hands so that the left arm and club no longer forms a straight line.I have said this before a long time ago that this can happen with a flat left wrist.A flat left wrist does not automaticallly imply handle dragging.Handle dragging is where the player stubbornly refuses to allow the clubhead to pass the hands even after impact.This is where TGM is flawed,not the flat left wrist.

 

[mrose]

I can't see any holding of angles from this old guy. In the 5 lessons drill he is really freewheeling and I don't think it would look that way if he was holding his wrist angles as much as a lot of people suggest. A lot of cynics say he doesn't show his real move in this and the Shell's tip video. Perhaps they/we have been ignoring the fact that he was just damn good at something that isn't as mystical as it has been made out to be.

I used to think the following clips were simply Hogan getting a bit older and so losing some of the strength and dynamics in his forearms and wrists etc. I'm starting to very much doubt that. Perhaps he was actually getting better with age.

 

[mrose]

A few more while I'm at it.

 

[ej20]

mrose,Hogan and those others you posted hold their "angle" about as well as anyone can or maybe I have missed your point?

 

[Jared Willerson]

The Davis video above is what made this info click for me.

This is not about having a flat left wrist or not. It is about lining up the shaft at impact. In reference to Hogan above, I am not looking at the hands I am looking at how backward the shaft is after impact, the butt end of the shaft is looking at his right thigh, it is not up the left arm. To me, that is the difference.

 

[ej20]

The Davis video above is what made this info click for me.

This is not about having a flat left wrist or not. It is about lining up the shaft at impact. In reference to Hogan above, I am not looking at the hands I am looking at how backward the shaft is after impact, the butt end of the shaft is looking at his right thigh, it is not up the left arm. To me, that is the difference.

This is where we are in agreement.No handle dragging but that doesn't mean the left wrist should be bent or "slap hinged".

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Just want to throw in my 2 cents here; the reality is that as long as you hit down "some" it really doesn't matter what the hands do through impact because you can't alter impact via the "heavy hit" or do much else because of the amount of time the ball is really on the clubface. This is why approximately 2 years ago i stopped caring about what my wrists did and just decided to focus on hitting down with a shallow divot. Didn't know why it worked but i knew it worked however now i know why because of Mike Jacobs.

The only thing you can really control is the amount of lean you are going to create and thus the amount of loft you are delivering imo, maybe you can control more but that's all you really need to to play some decent golf.

EDIT

Obviously still have to control path and aoa but i was referring to hands/wrists above.

 

[johnnymarlboro]

This is where we are in agreement.No handle dragging but that doesn't mean the left wrist should be bent or "slap hinged".

 

[mrose]

mrose,Hogan and those others you posted hold their "angle" about as well as anyone can or maybe I have missed your point?

Yes, I think you may have missed the point. There is no active or positive and conscious holding of angles/wedges or however it might be described. As Jared alludes to, the frames after impact show a free release without any manipulation or holding on to keep shaft lean and the down, out and forward with a flat left and bent right like TGM advocates. It may be said that after impact doesn't matter but I think it shows a lot about what was happening during impact. The motion of the body, and particularly the wrists, will be markedly different with post impact like those above as opposed to where angles are held for longer.

 

[bimyow]

Another unique vantage point.

 

[ej20]

Here's an even better vantage point....yes I do have a dead horse in my backyard that I practice on.LOL

Tiger Woods close up hands - YouTube

 

[bimyow]

Haha, glad to know you practice that horse beating.

I liked the angle of the one I posted because I can relate my swing feel easier from that angle. I know what that move feels like. From the front I can't get the same connection to what I'm seeing.

 

[grahler]

Hogan even wrote in Five Lessons that the position of left wrist through impact was the way it was so as not to slow down the clubhead.
He was all over this.

 

[wulsy]

Do any of you guys really believe that you can control the position of your left wrist through impact on any but the shortest of shots, eg. chips?

I hit a few eggs with my 5-iron on the range yesterday (great shots BTW, man I'm so modest) and there is just no way on earth that you can control the left wrist. It REACTS in order to create the correct impact conditions. If it's flat, it's flat and if it's bent, it's bent. Any attempt to control it is so absurd as a concept, that it is hard to believe that it was ever taught. That it seems to have become mainstream in teaching in the USA in particular is bewidering. Doesn't say much for the average analytical ability of golf pros in general.

I think Brian is saying that the INTENTION to control the wrist, and in particular to hold it flat, is GaGa-GaGa.

 

[mrose]

I also remember Hogan in Five Lessons writing words to the effect of if you start down with the hips you basically become a captive of your own good swing. I think that's pretty similar to Jack in that once they take the lead you're not going to be able to release too fast or too much provided your lower body action is solid in positioning the shoulders, arms and wrists in a position to do their business.

Like any sport that involves a straightening of the right hand, if you do it too soon it's probably from a stall, bad timing and simply lack of athletic touch and ability. Swinging like this seems too easy and against a golfer's instinct of thinking swing theory has to be complicated to be correct but now that Michael and Brian are putting some science and some whys and hows behind it we have that bit of something something to justify working towards a much more simple and natural action.

 

[mrose]

Do any of you guys really believe that you can control the position of your left wrist through impact on any but the shortest of shots, eg. chips?

I hit a few eggs with my 5-iron on the range yesterday (great shots BTW, man I'm so modest) and there is just no way on earth that you can control the left wrist. It REACTS in order to create the correct impact conditions. If it's flat, it's flat and if it's bent, it's bent. Any attempt to control it is so absurd as a concept, that it is hard to believe that it was ever taught. That it seems to have become mainstream in teaching in the USA in particular is bewidering. Doesn't say much for the average analytical ability of golf pros in general.

I think Brian is saying that the INTENTION to control the wrist, and in particular to hold it flat, is GaGa-GaGa.

i think your wife makes some sense wulsy. you seem to enjoy making generalisations, being a tad too confident in your opinions, and then going further and making judgments on those with opposing views. whatever floats your boat I guess!

i think it is quite simple to influence the left wrist. if you understand what it does to the clubface and the trajectory, direction and shape of the shot it is very much within a person's control if they have a good feel for their swing and their low point etc.

 

[wulsy]

I did say "through impact" mrose. By that I mean after the release starts.

Maybe you're referring to those who hit it pretty short with a slow swing (yourself?, no I'm only joking)? Then I suppose it would be possible, but that is never going to result in a quality golf shot.

 

[mrose]

I did say "through impact" mrose. By that I mean after the release starts.

Maybe you're referring to those who hit it pretty short with a slow swing (yourself?, no I'm only joking)? Then I suppose it would be possible, but that is never going to result in a quality golf shot.

Ok, I misunderstood. I thought by control you meant a person might be trying to keep the wrist in a certain orientation at impact. I think perhaps you meant it is not possible, or at the least not a good idea, to manipulate the wrist during the impact interval to rescue some perceived deviation from where you want it to be in that fraction of a second. I would agree with that. Keeping it under control is one thing, manipulating it is another entirely.

 

[ekennedy]

I don't believe anyone is ascribing that a player should consciously bend their left wrist post impact. It too is a moment in time. Its far more important that you don't keep it from happening by over-accelerating the lead arm and outracing the clubhead by a mile. The reason, I believe, most players get the chipping and pitching yips.

An aggresive first move down with the hands and arms toward the ball puts the club in a serious disadvantage when it comes to lining up for impact.

 

[wulsy]

An aggresive first move down with the hands and arms toward the ball puts the club in a serious disadvantage when it comes to lining up for impact.

Ain't that the truth, bra.