JEREMY5577
New
Agreed. We are used to making it so fricking complicated. I got this thought from another thread: Just push the club back where it came from while moving forward. Can't get much more simple than that.
The Release w/Brian Manzella & Michael Jacobs
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Agreed. We are used to making it so fricking complicated. I got this thought from another thread: Just push the club back where it came from while moving forward. Can't get much more simple than that.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Had to delete some posts....
Will go back and delete some more that were put up about another teacher.
WE DO NOT DO THAT AROUND HERE.
Someone posted somewhere else a photo of me from "Flipper," with the idea that it is old news. "Flipper's" subtitle is How Ben Doyle Taught me the Flattest Left Wrist in Golf.
That is what the video is, and if you do the concepts and drills, you will learn a flat wrist. Heck, I can't bend mine trying to.
The next "Flipper" will be how "I" would teach someone not to flip.
Will go back and delete some more that were put up about another teacher.
WE DO NOT DO THAT AROUND HERE.
Someone posted somewhere else a photo of me from "Flipper," with the idea that it is old news. "Flipper's" subtitle is How Ben Doyle Taught me the Flattest Left Wrist in Golf.
That is what the video is, and if you do the concepts and drills, you will learn a flat wrist. Heck, I can't bend mine trying to.
The next "Flipper" will be how "I" would teach someone not to flip.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Here is the 6 ideas to lining up the club for impact.
1. You are trying to scrape the ball off of the turf with a de-lofted club. With a Driver, you are trying to hit up with a de-lofted club.
2. To have the club coming in to the ball not so downward (or upward), the clubhead needs to be low to the ground well pre-impact.
3. The hands ideally should reach their lowest point well before impact. Somewhere near the right leg or under the "bowtie." The distance of the clubhead to the left wrist gets longer near impact, that is why you can have the hands moving up, and the clubhead moving down. But, you can also assist this action with the upward pull of your left shoulder and hands (from the shoulder socket and elbow). The hands will also be moving IN past their low point.
4. There is a point between the hands on the grip of the club we call the "coupling point." This point rotating around the full club Center of Gravity (which is off of the club, about an inch out and somewhat down for the club's balance point) is of upmost importance in studying the golf swing. Early in the downswing, getting the CP to stay inside the FCCoG is accomplish by and outward away from the target hand path. All hand paths from the top should be outward and away from the target. The width and direction of that path, and the FCCoG is VERY important.
5. The CPP (Coupling Point Path) should to be constrained to an arc that is optimal for lined-up impact, and the correct bottom vector of the D-Plane. Never move you hands outside of this arc. Don't ever direct them at a point anywhere NEAR the target line.
6. This Coupling Point is what the club should rotate around in the perpendicular plane for "release." When it does is optional, but will influence all of the above.
1. You are trying to scrape the ball off of the turf with a de-lofted club. With a Driver, you are trying to hit up with a de-lofted club.
2. To have the club coming in to the ball not so downward (or upward), the clubhead needs to be low to the ground well pre-impact.
3. The hands ideally should reach their lowest point well before impact. Somewhere near the right leg or under the "bowtie." The distance of the clubhead to the left wrist gets longer near impact, that is why you can have the hands moving up, and the clubhead moving down. But, you can also assist this action with the upward pull of your left shoulder and hands (from the shoulder socket and elbow). The hands will also be moving IN past their low point.
4. There is a point between the hands on the grip of the club we call the "coupling point." This point rotating around the full club Center of Gravity (which is off of the club, about an inch out and somewhat down for the club's balance point) is of upmost importance in studying the golf swing. Early in the downswing, getting the CP to stay inside the FCCoG is accomplish by and outward away from the target hand path. All hand paths from the top should be outward and away from the target. The width and direction of that path, and the FCCoG is VERY important.
5. The CPP (Coupling Point Path) should to be constrained to an arc that is optimal for lined-up impact, and the correct bottom vector of the D-Plane. Never move you hands outside of this arc. Don't ever direct them at a point anywhere NEAR the target line.
6. This Coupling Point is what the club should rotate around in the perpendicular plane for "release." When it does is optional, but will influence all of the above.
Virtuoso
New
I'm onboard with everything here except for the position of the coupling point. I still think the axis of rotation is the center of the left wrist, not a point on the grip between the hands.
As the left forearm rotates targetward at the bottom of the swing, the illusion is that the right hand is swinging forward and the left hand is swinging backwards. The more violently the angular momentum is distributed or "thrown" the more believable this illusion becomes.
But, the only way a point between the hands can be the actual coupling point is if the left wrist moved backwards in an exact inverse proportion to a point the same distance but on the opposite side. It's just not doing that, no matter how abruptly the angular momentum is "thrown."
lia41985
New member
Check what Michael Finney wrote about orthogonal. It may help.
Virtuoso
New
Lia, let me try it this way: If the coupling point is on the grip and between the hands (and I may be mistaken, but I believe Michael has defined that as a hinge with which you swing the handle to line up the shaft and square the face), then the angle between the left arm and shoulder line would have to stop expanding and go more acute again, or the left shoulder would have to be displaced backwards. Neither is happening.
My entire point: a point on the grip between the hands is not the point around which the FCCoG is swinging.
johnnymarlboro
New
But isn't it possible with the up and back movement of the left shoulder this change in angle between the left arm and shoulder line would be barely noticible? Obviously it's hard to tell in 2D, but it looks to me if you look closely between 26 and 28 seconds that what you say isn't happening, could possibly be happening in this particular case.
Michael Jacobs
Super Moderator
Geez dude, You are more than mistaking --- when did the word hinge or hinge behavior ever come into the equation..
Nothing is coming to halt, all parts are continually moving
Go back and watch the 2 shows again before making a statement like that and confusing the hell out of everyone. This is some crew that chimes in, geez
lia41985
New member
V: Your most recent post has caused me to recast your earlier post in the sense that I believe you may be overly wedded to notions of sequenced release and horizontal hinging. Those terms don't apply in a real world golf swing. Perhaps I'm mistaken as to my interpretation of your understanding?
Virtuoso
New
Lia, I'm not sure what you mean by sequenced release but it sounds pretty good to me. Below the center of the left wrist, all sorts of wild things happen based on what happened above the left wrist and to what extent the internal forces are losing the tug-a-war to the external forces. I guess it could be all sorts of recipes of vertical hinging vs horizontal hinging.
Michael, apologies for assumptions. When I heard you speak about the coupling or concentration point, and the related "appearance" of the inward movement of the butt end of the club, I assumed there was an implicit statement about hinge behavior, both in movement about the axis of a "hinge" and displacement of a hinge.
I think my mis-understanding was thinking of a coupling as a flexible coupling (essentially universal joint) instead of a rigid coupling or "frozen" angled coupling.
OK, thanks. But did Brian actually mean the orthogonal plane?
Virtuoso
New
I'm going to try to clarify my thoughts about the release bit more so i don't sound so much like a cook-stick.
A number of years ago, I was talking to Alistair Cochran about creating a universal framework of measurement that you could use to plot any swing, no matter the skill level of the player, that would clearly identify similarities/differences and thus establish common denominators among good ball strikers. One of the obvious goals would be to completely eradicate aesthetic values....or at least redefine true aesthetic value, ie, Nicklaus and Trevino are both beautiful as this measurement defines beauty.
Cochran was not impressed, but I was impressed with myself. Anyway, it kinda goes like this:
If done in 2D, and sketched on a piece of paper, the paper reresents the plane the longitudinal cg of the club through the impact zone. That is the basic reference plane. Not the shaft plane at address, not the swing plane half way down. So you are looking perpendicular to the impact plane of the LCG.
On that plane I would choose these reference points: FCCoG, Left wrist hinge, and Body CoG. Obviously, there are more moving parts, hinges, levers between these points....but they are the big boys.
For these points I would plot lateral displacement, curvilinear motion and rotational motion, ie, these points move and pure rotational motion around these points is curvilinear, etc. Would help define hip turn vs slide, and clubhead elipitical paths.
From this entire frame of reference I could better understand the true behavior of every swing. Examples:
A golfing machiner dragging the handle would show up quite vividly.
A recreational golfer casting would show up.
The handle traveling up the plane (up and left viewed from a different plane) as the FCCoG swings out to the ball would be clear.
Trevino, Hogan and Nicklaus would have very similar signatures in this context, contrasted against high handicapers.
So, this is where my reference point of left wrist is substituted for cp on grip. Both points would move "almost" the same, but I think the plot of the center of the grip would be slightly more muddled because I think the left wrist defines the coupling of the two "systems" better. IMHP
A number of years ago, I was talking to Alistair Cochran about creating a universal framework of measurement that you could use to plot any swing, no matter the skill level of the player, that would clearly identify similarities/differences and thus establish common denominators among good ball strikers. One of the obvious goals would be to completely eradicate aesthetic values....or at least redefine true aesthetic value, ie, Nicklaus and Trevino are both beautiful as this measurement defines beauty.
Cochran was not impressed, but I was impressed with myself. Anyway, it kinda goes like this:
If done in 2D, and sketched on a piece of paper, the paper reresents the plane the longitudinal cg of the club through the impact zone. That is the basic reference plane. Not the shaft plane at address, not the swing plane half way down. So you are looking perpendicular to the impact plane of the LCG.
On that plane I would choose these reference points: FCCoG, Left wrist hinge, and Body CoG. Obviously, there are more moving parts, hinges, levers between these points....but they are the big boys.
For these points I would plot lateral displacement, curvilinear motion and rotational motion, ie, these points move and pure rotational motion around these points is curvilinear, etc. Would help define hip turn vs slide, and clubhead elipitical paths.
From this entire frame of reference I could better understand the true behavior of every swing. Examples:
A golfing machiner dragging the handle would show up quite vividly.
A recreational golfer casting would show up.
The handle traveling up the plane (up and left viewed from a different plane) as the FCCoG swings out to the ball would be clear.
Trevino, Hogan and Nicklaus would have very similar signatures in this context, contrasted against high handicapers.
So, this is where my reference point of left wrist is substituted for cp on grip. Both points would move "almost" the same, but I think the plot of the center of the grip would be slightly more muddled because I think the left wrist defines the coupling of the two "systems" better. IMHP
Virtuoso
New
Yes, 3D is optimum. I described in 2D to emphasize my preferred viewpoint: perpendicular to the impact plane of the LCG. When taking actual measurements you would plot X,Y,Z.
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