The Release w/Brian Manzella & Michael Jacobs

[Virtuoso]

Right, I know. I'm just saying you're analysis and perceptions are based on a 2-D world so now matter how careful you are your conclusions are inadequate compared to Michael's conclusions based on analysis of 3-D. Deference is due and I'm glad you're here too learn.

Lia, I'm glad I'm here too, and I've learned a lot.

What are your thougts about a 3D measurement system that only looks at the cg of your body, the cg of the club and the hinge at the left wrist, as these petain to the release, among other phases of the swing?

Is this insufficient?

 

[lia41985]

Insufficient, yes. What's missing is Trackman/Fligtscope. Everything is secondary to what the ball and club are doing.

 

[James Marshall (Hogan1953)]

I may have missed this but is it the straightening of the right elbow that is responsible for the hands moving away from the target in the transition?

 

[Virtuoso]

Insufficient, yes. What's missing is Trackman/Fligtscope. Everything is secondary to what the ball and club are doing.

Ok, I like that, how about the above mentioned 3D analysis and trackman?

In terms of my conclusions being adequate to Micheal's, I really don't know--I haven't analysed this way yet. The obvious distinction would be location of coupling point, but that wouldn't be a conclusion; that would be a different assumption by me on the front end.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Boys!!!

Stop arguing off the subject with all of this personal crap.

Please.


Hogan....it is an out away from the target hand path that will help many.

 

[dbl]

V anyone could setup a categorization system based on anything, including nose angle and knee action. I'm not sure what would make sense to show the swing DNA the most clearly. Project 1.68 will surely reveal perspectives and give you further insight.

As to the left hand you wanted to focus on, you still need some 3D information just to know if hands are ahead of the clubhead or not at impact.

 

[lia41985]

Ok, I like that, how about the above mentioned 3D analysis and trackman?

In terms of my conclusions being adequate to Micheal's, I really don't know--I haven't analysed this way yet. The obvious distinction would be location of coupling point, but that wouldn't be a conclusion; that would be a different assumption by me on the front end.

Everything else in your set up looks great. I would say that if we're going to draw conclusions from data we'd be better of trusting the conclusions from data that comes from a better source. 3-D/doppler radar are a better source than camera/2-D tracing.

 

[wulsy]

...This point rotating around the full club Center of Gravity

Brian, this is a difficult one to understand... Is this point really rotating around the FCCoG or is it the other way around?

 

[Virtuoso]

deleted

 

[birly-shirly]

Brian - stepping back, does this change your views on how the average player who needs to should learn to
(a) square the clubface; or
(b) put a more descending angle of attack on the ball?

 

[James Marshall (Hogan1953)]

"it is an out away from the target hand path that will help many"

OK, but how? Straightening the right elbow or is it in the hands themselves? Thanks, James

 

[wulsy]

birly, I think maybe this info is just about the ideal way to swing, not really about corrections for non optimal swings. As Brian said somewhere earlier, the DVD is coming and will, I guess, probably deal with the issue of corrections in cases where the AoA is too steep/too shallow and the clubface too open/too shut.

Brian: thanks a bunch for the best forum on the planet. I've learnt a great deal here and never once, until tonight seen anything on the forum which was really out of order concerning personal insults and gross indecency. Until tonight. So that's it for me. Thanks for the memories. PS Maybe I'll come out and take a few lesson with you or attend one of your seminars if I may.

 

[spmurph]

"it is an out away from the target hand path that will help many"

OK, but how? Straightening the right elbow or is it in the hands themselves? Thanks, James

+1 on this question

 

[Virtuoso]

Everything else in your set up looks great. I would say that if we're going to draw conclusions from data we'd be better of trusting the conclusions from data that comes from a better source. 3-D/doppler radar are a better source than camera/2-D tracing.

Well, not doppler radar for motion analysis, but your basic multi-camera system with reflectors (tandem reflectors for rotation around things like FCCoG). Force plates for plotting Body cg. Hmm, maybe ultrasound instead of cameras.

 

[lia41985]

Well, not doppler radar for motion analysis, but your basic multi-camera system with reflectors (tandem reflectors for rotation around things like FCCoG). Force plates for plotting Body cg. Hmm, maybe ultrasound instead of cameras.

I'm with you. I know doppler isn't for motion analysis but I'd want a launch monitor there anyways because all the data from the other machines would be of secondary importance to what the launch monitor was saying. I'm interested in how you'd rank the machines, and therefore the data, in terms of importance?

 

[Virtuoso]

I'm with you. I know doppler isn't for motion analysis but I'd want a launch monitor there anyways because all the data from the other machines would be of secondary importance to what the launch monitor was saying. I'm interested in how you'd rank the machines, and therefore the data, in terms of importance?

Well, as you say, nothing is as important as what the ball does. And I'm all for using radar to capture the basic clubhead delivery and ball flight, with the caveat that the spin numbers aren't perfect, and radar cannot capture face angle at impact.

BUT, this thread is about how the body works to release the club so we can't put that too far on the back burner can we?

 

[Noreaster]

This is all so very confusing.....what does this 'new' take mean for how Brian will teach the swing? This approach kind of sounds like Manuel De La Torre's approach to the swing minus all the technical lingo.......

 

[jenhaoyen]

just making a note here.

I think after you let your wrist cup through impact, the club should go up into the finish. Rather than around your body.

 

[ScottRob]

I am not an expert, but by using the shoulder complexes a golfer would be able to manipulate the hands even with a straight left arm to have the hands moving up and in at impact.

I do remember Brian and Michael advocating a slightly bent left arm at the top of the backswing so that the average golfer could learn to feel what it feels like to move the clubhead away from the ball at the start of the downswing.

I'm really late to this party but I have a somewhat interesting anecdote dealing with the slightly bent left arm. I am not going to drop the name, but I had an impromptu swing lesson from a great golfer from the 40s/50s. He insisted that I keep some slack in my left arm at the top of the backswing. I was a novice golfer in my early teens, but I remember two things about his comments 1) He said don't believe the modern straight left arm stuff, this is how the greats did it (refering to Vardon, Taylor, Braid) 2) If it is not slightly bent then you have "nowhere to go" from the top. I never understood his comments until this thread. Thanks.

 

[jenhaoyen]

I'm really late to this party but I have a somewhat interesting anecdote dealing with the slightly bent left arm. I am not going to drop the name, but I had an impromptu swing lesson from a great golfer from the 40s/50s. He insisted that I keep some slack in my left arm at the top of the backswing. I was a novice golfer in my early teens, but I remember two things about his comments 1) He said don't believe the modern straight left arm stuff, this is how the greats did it (refering to Vardon, Taylor, Braid) 2) If it is not slightly bent then you have "nowhere to go" from the top. I never understood his comments until this thread. Thanks.

It's definitely easier for me. More relax. If you try to straighten your left arm, all these tensions make it harder to swing.