The clubhead has alot more traveling to do than the hands. Get it started early and close that gap. In other words, start releasing from the top.
The Release w/Brian Manzella & Michael Jacobs
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The clubhead has alot more traveling to do than the hands. Get it started early and close that gap. In other words, start releasing from the top.
mgjordan
New
The gap between the sweetspot and the ball.
scorekeeper
New member
with respect...i am really surprised and disappointed at this post.....YOUR ASKING Brian and Mike .....just because they found something new......does that mean they will stop using all ways and means to help someone.....cmon birly......not a fair characterization especially towards 2 people who work tirelessly to help all of us.......you have added good info and good questions in the past.......this post is not becoming of you.......I spoke to Aaron ZICK the other night on skype for 1 hour and 40 min...all i will say is this
WE ARE VERY LUCKY TO HAVE BRIAN AND MIKE WORKING "WITH US" TO MAKE US BETTER...........
mgjordan
New
I think some people are misinterpreting this information. Michale isn't saying that "flipping" or "casting" is right or that lag and a flat left wrist at impact is incorrect. What he is saying is that TRYING to lag the club, have a "snap release", or hold your left wrist flat is NOT the way to do it. He is saying that if the club is moved away from the target at transition and the golfer "closes the gap" and lets the hands come back up and in prior to impact and then COMBINES THAT with a good pivot, then lag and a FLW will happen WITHOUT THE GOLFER TRYING TO DO IT. And then once impact happens it doen't matter what you do with the left wrist.
The problem with golf instruction is that we take video of the swing from a third person perspective. We slow it way down, see the visual results of the swing, and then try to get the club and our body into those postions while we are in full motion swinging a club that weighs 100+ pounds by the time it reaches it's full speed. The problem with that is 1. we can't do it moving at full speed and 2. the visual result of the swing is probably nowhere near the physical exertions and intentions of the golfer.
How do you think Tiger Woods and Jack Nicklaus learned the game when they were kids? Do you think they worked on holding on to any angles and thrusting the hands forward? NO!!! They took the club back and tried to accelerate the clubhead as hard and fast as they could into the ball. If you ever watch slow motion video of an adult trying to "hold the angle" and get the hands forward you will probably see a flip pre-impact, loft added, an open face, and a poor impact position. If you slow the video down of an 8 year old hitting a ball you will probably see Tour quality lag and a FLW at impact and then a released of the right wrist post impact. The reason is because they aren't trying to acheive to positons or "look pretty" on video.
I think it's great that Michael is doing tests on the forces present in the swing. That lets him tap into the real physical exertions, sensations, and intentions of the player instead of going by what the resulting slow motion video says the player is trying to do.
When almost ever great player says something like "hit hard with the right hand" (Hogan, Armour, Mehlhorn, Bobby Jones, etc.) I don't see how we can continue to think they are trying to drag the handle 4 feet forward of the ball. It just doesn't happen...not by physical exertion, intention, or on video.
The problem with golf instruction is that we take video of the swing from a third person perspective. We slow it way down, see the visual results of the swing, and then try to get the club and our body into those postions while we are in full motion swinging a club that weighs 100+ pounds by the time it reaches it's full speed. The problem with that is 1. we can't do it moving at full speed and 2. the visual result of the swing is probably nowhere near the physical exertions and intentions of the golfer.
How do you think Tiger Woods and Jack Nicklaus learned the game when they were kids? Do you think they worked on holding on to any angles and thrusting the hands forward? NO!!! They took the club back and tried to accelerate the clubhead as hard and fast as they could into the ball. If you ever watch slow motion video of an adult trying to "hold the angle" and get the hands forward you will probably see a flip pre-impact, loft added, an open face, and a poor impact position. If you slow the video down of an 8 year old hitting a ball you will probably see Tour quality lag and a FLW at impact and then a released of the right wrist post impact. The reason is because they aren't trying to acheive to positons or "look pretty" on video.
I think it's great that Michael is doing tests on the forces present in the swing. That lets him tap into the real physical exertions, sensations, and intentions of the player instead of going by what the resulting slow motion video says the player is trying to do.
When almost ever great player says something like "hit hard with the right hand" (Hogan, Armour, Mehlhorn, Bobby Jones, etc.) I don't see how we can continue to think they are trying to drag the handle 4 feet forward of the ball. It just doesn't happen...not by physical exertion, intention, or on video.
mgranato
New
Reason, common sense, and wisdom like this can only come from one geographic location.
I thought birly's question was ok, and Brian has said a new COFF would have a different presentation now
Also as to mg's post, I do think it was hi quality. But I did not read in this thread from the two primary teachers that a flw would happen automatically. I did hear them say impact was just a point in time. My rereading of jorgensen has helped me see some things in this that can automate closing, but that is slightly different than the line it up concept.
Also as to mg's post, I do think it was hi quality. But I did not read in this thread from the two primary teachers that a flw would happen automatically. I did hear them say impact was just a point in time. My rereading of jorgensen has helped me see some things in this that can automate closing, but that is slightly different than the line it up concept.
birly-shirly
New
I'm not asking will they help, I'm asking how they'll help. Is that unfair?
I understand that this information adds to the information in, e.g., NSA or flipper. I'm trying to understand the extent to which it supersedes the earlier information as the most useful teaching tool.
I don't think there's a "good" or a "bad" answer. If this stuff is complementary to earlier work, then that's great. But if it makes NSA redundant as a tool for learning to square the clubface, then that's great too.
All I'm trying to do is get a handle on where BM and MJ think this fits in to their overall strategy for making golfers better. Is it a new tool in the box, or does it replace the whole box?
BertramSterling
New
I don't see a problem with the question Birly, I understood it as how does this affect other fixes (say, the twistaway) which is something I have been pondering at times.
I would say that some people are jumping on this as the new be-all end-all fix, and that way of looking at things led us all to take the forward lean too far. Someone probably (innocently) noticed that good players have some shaft lean, and it was decided by someone else the more shaft lean the better. Next thing you know we are all trying to take a divot a yard infront of the ball and start swinging miles out to the right.
I would expect you still need *some* of all the other things, maybe a little less of this, more of that. I have plenty of friends who aren't exactly striping the ball - I don't see this information changing that. But then, I'm not sure they are trying for any of this forward hands, forward lean stuff, and in that case COFF as it stands might help - with the caveat that you *can* have too much.
But I realise what you are asking..
And I too am keen to see how this fits in with NSA, COFF, etc. Guess we'll have to wait and see..
I would say that some people are jumping on this as the new be-all end-all fix, and that way of looking at things led us all to take the forward lean too far. Someone probably (innocently) noticed that good players have some shaft lean, and it was decided by someone else the more shaft lean the better. Next thing you know we are all trying to take a divot a yard infront of the ball and start swinging miles out to the right.
I would expect you still need *some* of all the other things, maybe a little less of this, more of that. I have plenty of friends who aren't exactly striping the ball - I don't see this information changing that. But then, I'm not sure they are trying for any of this forward hands, forward lean stuff, and in that case COFF as it stands might help - with the caveat that you *can* have too much.
But I realise what you are asking..
And I too am keen to see how this fits in with NSA, COFF, etc. Guess we'll have to wait and see..
scorekeeper
New member
i think that keeping in mind....that the way Brian teaches....and Mike ....is that whatever it takes to get it done is what will be used
I can have the same issue....as say...footwedge......yet Brian will teach us whatever works best for US...............IF Brian ever goes to 1 size fits all.............I promise you....I WILL STEAL his golf clubs.... When Brian and Mike..left TGM....1 of the main reasons was because they wanted it....TGM....to keep moving forward, it wasn't going to happen...........they knew advanced learning needed to be in place, so they moved on and doing so..........Last point....at the Presidential tour stop...........my good friend Rock went there....he watched Brian teach 8 or 9 different people....and just about each one was helped in a different way......Rock said he never heard Brian say the same thing 2wice.EACH PERSON WAS AN INDIVIDUAL.......if Brian uses only 1 way to teach he becomes like all other COOKIE CUTTERS....he doesn't eeven know which button to push to start the morning coffee???..HOW CAN HE MAKES COOKIES..............so...NO WORRIES....this is just another step into the future of teaching.....
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Brian Manzella
Administrator
The information in this thread will not change much of my teaching.
But it will affect some of it.
I will post more on this when I can.
But it will affect some of it.
I will post more on this when I can.
"Harpooning the ball with the butt-end of the stick."--- Mike Austin.
I guess that makes the aiming point idea Moby Dick! I am hoping for a better result for the ol' Capin' I am embarressed by how many times I dismissed people who could do it better than me, by using the old "seems as if" line. Shame on me. Suddenly it appears to me that Brian co. have the patience of saints! Perhaps being part of an industry that is marred by so much ignorance is better than having a union!
Holy Crap! Norman's hand path on the ds (judging from the grid lines behind him) almost trace the same width as the bs, except he is moving his weight to his left quite aggressively. Tough to notice the wide bs to wide ds because of the pivot. Amazing.
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