The Release w/Brian Manzella & Michael Jacobs

[GeoffDickson]

I grew up a Greg Norman fan and can distinctively remember a golf swing analysis/photo sequence in a golf magazine (with corresponding commentary from Greg) that highlighted the width of his downswing..and that one of his swing thoughts was to keep his hands as far away from his body on the way down as he could. Norman never, ever looked scared swinging a driver. A million words to describe his swing, but fearful is not one of them.

 

[GeoffDickson]

Pivot

Just back from first driving range session post-Jacobs video.

Initial thoughts:
1. No way I can consciously make an effort to ensure that hands are rising as I hit the ball. Fingers crossed i do this naturally. Prior to Jacobs' video I had no thoughts as to whether low hands should or should not coincide, so perhaps there is nothing for me to unlearn.

2. Aiming initial direction of butthead at back wall of driving range worked well BUT demanded, by my standards at least, a fairly aggressive pivot/ rotation of the hips to make it work. I think this is a good thing and an improvement to my swing. At 11.20 of Jacob's #2 video he talks about the role of the pivot/body movement in helping to delay the outwards release of the club.

Back in 2007, BManz was talking about talking about catching the drop:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aB61Iw5D7YU

In my mind at least, the 'fairly aggressive pivot/ rotation of the hips to make it work' is analogous to 'catching the drop'.

3. Felt like I was flipping, but then again, feelings and reality are different. I certainly felt more of a sweeping motion as I hit the ball.

4. Ball flight was higher than normal, perhaps too high.

5. I will definitely be pursuing the Jacob's message. I think it is a winner.

It is fair to describe me as a castor who can hit only a 220-225 yard carry with driver. Would you expect the pivot/hip rotation to alter if one was seeking to delay the outward release of the club?

 

[johnnymarlboro]

For those who don't have or haven't watched the Symposium videos, I strongly suggest getting them. So many of the topics on those videos dovetail perfectly with the discussions in this thread.

A carpentry metaphor on a golf forum... impressive.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

I may be over simplifying and Michael or Brian can correct me if i am, but the biggest thing to takeaway from all of this is that it is simply OK to allow your left wrist to breakdown immediately following impact. As long as you had "some lean" and hit down "some" the ball doesn't know any different and you will play better golf for it.

 

[Jared Willerson]

Fairly spot on Jim. The jist to me is to not drag the handle toward the target but to close the gap between the hands and clubhead.

 

[Jared Willerson]

BTW, the Davis and Norman videos above are what really made this new information click with me (I guess it was the grid in the background). Wide hands on the down swing and letting the clubhead line up, lots of closing the gap in those videos.

 

[golfbulldog]

BTW, the Davis and Norman videos above are what really made this new information click with me (I guess it was the grid in the background). Wide hands on the down swing and letting the clubhead line up, lots of closing the gap in those videos.

Do you think that arc-width of coupling point on downswing relates to hip location/weight shift on the downswing rather than something the hands are trying to do?

 

[spmurph]

I feel like I have to consciously keep my CP path wide because my pivot wants to take it towards the target. I feel like my pivot is pulling towards the target and my hands are pushing away from it. Is this the right feeling?

 

[cmartingolf]

Here is the 6 ideas to lining up the club for impact.

1. You are trying to scrape the ball off of the turf with a de-lofted club. With a Driver, you are trying to hit up with a de-lofted club.

2. To have the club coming in to the ball not so downward (or upward), the clubhead needs to be low to the ground well pre-impact.

3. The hands ideally should reach their lowest point well before impact. Somewhere near the right leg or under the "bowtie." The distance of the clubhead to the left wrist gets longer near impact, that is why you can have the hands moving up, and the clubhead moving down. But, you can also assist this action with the upward pull of your left shoulder and hands (from the shoulder socket and elbow). The hands will also be moving IN past their low point.

4. There is a point between the hands on the grip of the club we call the "coupling point." This point rotating around the full club Center of Gravity (which is off of the club, about an inch out and somewhat down for the club's balance point) is of upmost importance in studying the golf swing. Early in the downswing, getting the CP to stay inside the FCCoG is accomplish by and outward away from the target hand path. All hand paths from the top should be outward and away from the target. The width and direction of that path, and the FCCoG is VERY important.

5. The CPP (Coupling Point Path) should to be constrained to an arc that is optimal for lined-up impact, and the correct bottom vector of the D-Plane. Never move you hands outside of this arc. Don't ever direct them at a point anywhere NEAR the target line.

6. This Coupling Point is what the club should rotate around in the perpendicular plane for "release." When it does is optional, but will influence all of the above.

Love this...

Especially the simplicity of #1.

Good debate on this thread! Figures a guy from NY and an Italian would get this going

 

[Jwat]

Love this...

Especially the simplicity of #1.

Good debate on this thread! Figures a guy from NY and an Italian would get this going

Hey Martin,

Does this change anything with the tour striker? Can it be used with the CPR?

 

[GeoffDickson]

I feel like I have to consciously keep my CP path wide because my pivot wants to take it towards the target. I feel like my pivot is pulling towards the target and my hands are pushing away from it. Is this the right feeling?

I think that's pretty close to what I felt...

The pivot eventually wins.

 

[lia41985]

I grew up a Greg Norman fan and can distinctively remember a golf swing analysis/photo sequence in a golf magazine (with corresponding commentary from Greg) that highlighted the width of his downswing..and that one of his swing thoughts was to keep his hands as far away from his body on the way down as he could. Norman never, ever looked scared swinging a driver. A million words to describe his swing, but fearful is not one of them.

Geoff: Thanks for this. I used this today and it really helped. I get my hands so narrow by the top of my backswing and the corresponding narrowness of my downswing creates problems. The carry helped but this idea of downswing width and lining it up has me hitting it the best I have in my life.

 

[scorekeeper]

HEY MARTIN

JUST WANT TO SAY HOW HAPPY I AM FOR YOU ON THE OVERWHELMING SUCCESS OF YOUR "TOUR STRIKER""

GOOD FOR YOU MARTIN.........GOOD FOR YOU

HOWARD

 

[Lifter]

I grew up a Greg Norman fan and can distinctively remember a golf swing analysis/photo sequence in a golf magazine (with corresponding commentary from Greg) that highlighted the width of his downswing..and that one of his swing thoughts was to keep his hands as far away from his body on the way down as he could. Norman never, ever looked scared swinging a driver. A million words to describe his swing, but fearful is not one of them.

I'm a little skeptical about this one. I'm sure that "hands as far away from the body" works great for the Nicklaus-Calcaveccia-Watson-Toms-Norman model. But I'm not persuaded (yet) that moving the hands away from the top is very common to the Sergio-Hogan-McIllroy-Fowler model.

 

[cmartingolf]

Hey Martin,

Does this change anything with the tour striker? Can it be used with the CPR?

Absolutely! I cringed at "hit down" for most people as it gets them too steep and OTT. If you have a TSP, try and hit normal shots only brushing the grass. There's lean without a lot of AoA.

Bman helped me with this thought two years ago!

 

[cmartingolf]

HEY MARTIN

JUST WANT TO SAY HOW HAPPY I AM FOR YOU ON THE OVERWHELMING SUCCESS OF YOUR "TOUR STRIKER""

GOOD FOR YOU MARTIN.........GOOD FOR YOU

HOWARD

Thanks H!! I appreciate it.

 

[Kevin Shields]

I'm a little skeptical about this one. I'm sure that "hands as far away from the body" works great for the Nicklaus-Calcaveccia-Watson-Toms-Norman model. But I'm not persuaded (yet) that moving the hands away from the top is very common to the Sergio-Hogan-McIllroy-Fowler model.

Do you think they move into the body?? Their hands may separate away from the right shoulder even more.

 

[Lifter]

Do you think they move into the body?? Their hands may separate away from the right shoulder even more.

Kevin, I'm no expert but intuitively, huge width on the downswing seems to be a signature element for guys like Davis Love III and Norman but it doesn't seem to be a signature element for Sergio, Hogan, Rory, etc. My intuition could easily be wrong, though. I look forward to being persuaded by visual evidence.

P.S.: I enjoy the "You couldn't be more wrong" tone of some of Kevin's posts. Seriously. They encourage debate.

 

[Dariusz J.]

Not everything in 2-D is equal to 3-D. Hogan, with his low plane swing, prolly had more width in 3-D than an upright DTL slinger. A bird view would be helpful here, may be this one:

Jack Nicklaus & Mike Souchak - Gary Player & Arnold Palmer Slow Motion - YouTube

Who of the four created the biggest gap between rear shoulder and hands during the first part of the downswing ?

Cheers

 

[fronesis]

of the four created the biggest gap between rear shoulder and hands during the first part of the downswing ?

I'm worried this is a trick question....because to my eye it looks really clear from the above shot that Nicklaus has way more width than the other three. You can clearly see a first move of the hands away from the target as Nicklaus starts the downswing.