The Release w/Brian Manzella & Michael Jacobs

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Brian Manzella

Administrator
Brian, this is a difficult one to understand... Is this point really rotating around the FCCoG or is it the other way around?

They are dancing in space together.

Brian - stepping back, does this change your views on how the average player who needs to should learn to
(a) square the clubface; or
(b) put a more descending angle of attack on the ball?

For me, less downward.

"it is an out away from the target hand path that will help many"

OK, but how? Straightening the right elbow or is it in the hands themselves? Thanks, James

I don't think it matters to the FCCoG

This is all so very confusing.....what does this 'new' take mean for how Brian will teach the swing? This approach kind of sounds like Manuel De La Torre's approach to the swing minus all the technical lingo.......

He was on to something studying E. jones, but my lessons and any video, article, or book on the subject I would do, would be much different than Mr. Manuel.

It's definitely easier for me. More relax. If you try to straighten your left arm, all these tensions make it harder to swing.

I remember getting blasted for it around here.
 
It's definitely easier for me. More relax. If you try to straighten your left arm, all these tensions make it harder to swing.

I wish I could not keep my left arm so straight... I have a very short backswing, with a very rigid left arm. I have always done this, and I know it costs me a lot of distance. It is so ingrained though, I don't know if I could not do it!
 
My money says the softer left arm is in better keeping with its "normal" appearance i.e. at rest, hanging at your side. I have never tried to keep my left arm ramrod straight, except in my extensive extensor action days. The idea of left arm extention (that I originally learned from reading Joe Norwood's stuff) without "tension" really appealed to me. I abandoned because it shortened my arc considerably and felt contrived.
I learned a bunker playing technique from a former European tour player (that learned it from an older English pro...Tommy Horton...maybe) that mandated a slightly bent left arm then the away from the ball movement of the hands. Some stuff is coming full circle...with a far more substantive base. Cool!
 
"Pivoting like crazy is crazy"

That implies that pivoting harder doesn't provide a sufficiently significant gain in terms of power/speed to justify doing it, right?

Or that it doesn't offer any particular advantage in terms of facilitating the impact alignments.

So no point in aiming right to have to pivot harder to achieve the appropriate d-plane alignments, you're better off aiming a little left and making sure you hit down on it enough to zero-out.
 
They are dancing in space together.

yes, and I would elaborate further.

There is no point of mass that operates as a true rotational center. There are tandem points of mass that share a rotational center. Example: the Moon doesn't actually orbit around the earth's cg. There is a point between the Earth cg and Moon cg around which they both rotate. It just so happens that the mass of the Earth is so much greater that the combined center of rotation is much, much closer to the Earth cg, so it appears the Moon is orbiting around the Earth.

Think of a barbell with one heavy weight on one end and one light weight on the other. In order to balance it, the pivot point is much closer to the heavy weight.

The same is true for the golf swing, except that the dynamic weight of the club is changing throughout the downswing. Thus, since the effective weight is changing, the body cg (ie, the "earth") needs to move back away from the combined center of rotation to balance things out. This is why you see good players with their upper body "leaning back" away or "hopping up" from the release of the club. They are managing the "tug-a-war."

Choppers, on the other hand, don't manage that balancing act very well, and tend to get pulled forward toward the ball....to the extent that many times they actually have to take a step outwards to catch themselves.

Some lessons about rotational systems and dynamic pulling weights:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLLgPneleG8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYa-Msdpb_E
 
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"Pivoting like crazy is crazy"

That implies that pivoting harder doesn't provide a sufficiently significant gain in terms of power/speed to justify doing it, right?

Or that it doesn't offer any particular advantage in terms of facilitating the impact alignments.

So no point in aiming right to have to pivot harder to achieve the appropriate d-plane alignments, you're better off aiming a little left and making sure you hit down on it enough to zero-out.

You don't want to pivot so hard that the hand path is forced more horizontal in the downswing.

4. The pivot is very important for POSITIONING the shoulder complexes/arms/wrists/hands/& club.
 
Originally Posted by birly-shirly
Brian - stepping back, does this change your views on how the average player who needs to should learn to
(a) square the clubface; or
(b) put a more descending angle of attack on the ball?

For me, less downward.

Brian - I didn't mean your personal game. I mean that many golfers struggle to square the face and many golfers have a lowpoint the wrong side of the ball.

I can already see how the information here is going to help players who have overdone the FLW or have too steep an AoA. But I was asking whether this information will change how you teach the first group of golfers to square up the clubface or shift their lowpoint forward.

Thanks
BS
 

ej20

New
Brian - I didn't mean your personal game. I mean that many golfers struggle to square the face and many golfers have a lowpoint the wrong side of the ball.

I can already see how the information here is going to help players who have overdone the FLW or have too steep an AoA. But I was asking whether this information will change how you teach the first group of golfers to square up the clubface or shift their lowpoint forward.

Thanks
BS

Errr,I think perhaps all this is meant to fix the TGM handle draggers,not the average hack.How many TGM handle draggers are there anyway?I don't think it ever went mainstream and really it's just a very small group of enthusiasts.
 

dbl

New
What? So in the great golf hospital that is the Manzella Academy, this solution is only (mainly) for patients suffering this malady in a certain wing? Maybe like a special ward in a sanitarium...

Interesting.
 
They are dancing in space together.



For me, less downward.



I don't think it matters to the FCCoG



He was on to something studying E. jones, but my lessons and any video, article, or book on the subject I would do, would be much different than Mr. Manuel.



I remember getting blasted for it around here.

If you write it Brian I will buy it!
 

Michael Jacobs

Super Moderator
Errr,I think perhaps all this is meant to fix the TGM handle draggers,not the average hack.How many TGM handle draggers are there anyway?I don't think it ever went mainstream and really it's just a very small group of enthusiasts.

No way, teach well over 1,000 different people per season and more than half come thinking they should drive their hands down and out --- The hands ahead along with hitting down with them has been mainstream golf instruction for the past 15 years. Even in the welcome to golf classes I do with large crowds, they have heard the concept. The forward hands handle drag is a disaster when the golfer goes down and out trying to match their hand low point to their club head low point. The point of the whole Explosive Golf Show and this discussion.
 
No way, teach well over 1,000 different people per season and more than half come thinking they should drive their hands down and out --- The hands ahead along with hitting down with them has been mainstream golf instruction for the past 15 years. Even in the welcome to golf classes I do with large crowds, they have heard the concept. The forward hands handle drag is a disaster when the golfer goes down and out trying to match their hand low point to their club head low point. The point of the whole Explosive Golf Show and this discussion.


Sorry if this has been adressed elsewhere but is your 3rd show out or in the works?
Thx MJ
 
No way, teach well over 1,000 different people per season and more than half come thinking they should drive their hands down and out --- The hands ahead along with hitting down with them has been mainstream golf instruction for the past 15 years. Even in the welcome to golf classes I do with large crowds, they have heard the concept. The forward hands handle drag is a disaster when the golfer goes down and out trying to match their hand low point to their club head low point. The point of the whole Explosive Golf Show and this discussion.

Michael, Firstly I defer to you tremendous knowledge of the swing and I just have a simple question about this whole matter regarding forward shaft lean. I can understand the frustration of so many folks trying to ‘perfect’ the lag phenomenon and as a result they consciously overdue it and they have an open face at impact. I can’t help but think are we not splitting hairs here? Optimal shaft lean could be as little as 4 degrees which is just one minute past 12 O’ Clock and the results are nice. I’M just a little off on this and what it brings to the table. I really like your stuff just trying to figure out this and how it pertains to the current fad in golf instruction.
 
Michael, Firstly I defer to you tremendous knowledge of the swing and I just have a simple question about this whole matter regarding forward shaft lean. I can understand the frustration of so many folks trying to ‘perfect’ the lag phenomenon and as a result they consciously overdue it and they have an open face at impact. I can’t help but think are we not splitting hairs here? Optimal shaft lean could be as little as 4 degrees which is just one minute past 12 O’ Clock and the results are nice. I’M just a little off on this and what it brings to the table. I really like your stuff just trying to figure out this and how it pertains to the current fad in golf instruction.

I think the crux of this whole thing is intent. The intent of "handle draggers" was to hold off the release and have forward shaft lean in an attempt to snap release which supposedly produced an optimal strike. I think what MJ is saying is that a golfer's intent should be to line up the clubhead with the hands right at the ball, and that is what produces the optimal strike.

If I wanted to play a low 8 iron, I would put the ball behind center, but still have the intent of lining up the clubhead and hands at the ball, but at impact, the shaft would probably be leaning forward a bit.

The forward shaft lean is a by-product of the reasonings behind it.
 
I can tell you what it means to a nobody (yours truly!) It is a coherent explantion (although not exaustive :p) of what the isufferably talented players rub our spectacularly average noses in. If you apply force across the shaft you can "cast" as well as well as get super-leany and "dig." Seems likes like a two for one. If you can reduce a lot of crappy golf to a basic root cause (applying force across the shaft) then I would say (regardless if has been hinted at here and there before) "MJ" (Manzella/Jacobs) have a coup. This is almost as revelatory to me as the D-plane...almost. :)

So for a range trial run this weekend I was thinking the following:

1) Soften the left arm a bit
2) From the top move my hands (think in terms of the club as well) away from the target
3)Close the gap...align the shaft
4)Gasp in amazement
 
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Dariusz J.

New member
Errr,I think perhaps all this is meant to fix the TGM handle draggers,not the average hack.How many TGM handle draggers are there anyway?I don't think it ever went mainstream and really it's just a very small group of enthusiasts.

The average hack has access to golf instruction not only through teaching pros but also through net info or golf buddies' info and what he/she can hear often: "you're casting" "you need to have more lag" "you are not allowed to release so early" and my favourite "divot should start 4 INCHES (which is equal to 10 CENTIMETERS) after the ball" ROFL.
No odd that so many leave golf after a very short period of time or stay with a hacker HCP for ages. Golf instruction must stop to suck and be useful for masses and not be a monument how smart a teacher is with the above cited BS. IMHO.

Cheers
 
So for a range trial run this weekend I was thinking the following:

1) Soften the left arm a bit
2) From the top move my hands (think in terms of the club as well) away from the target
3)Close the gap...align the shaft
4)Gasp in amazement

What exactly does "close the gap" refer to, again?
 
No way, teach well over 1,000 different people per season and more than half come thinking they should drive their hands down and out --- The hands ahead along with hitting down with them has been mainstream golf instruction for the past 15 years. Even in the welcome to golf classes I do with large crowds, they have heard the concept. The forward hands handle drag is a disaster when the golfer goes down and out trying to match their hand low point to their club head low point. The point of the whole Explosive Golf Show and this discussion.

OK - so this is based in physics and describes what actually happens in a good swing. And I'd agree that there are lots of folks, largely c/o the internet I'd say, who have got maximum lag and big fwd shaft lean into their heads as desirable concepts. So this is good stuff to fix their concept of how the swing works, and like lots of people on this thread have said, will make many golfers intensely more relaxed about a little bit of left wrist bend, maybe some left arm flex and other good things.

But this surely isn't about to evolve into a one-size fits all Jacobs/Manzella Method, is it? You're still going to be fixing faults and moving people towards better D-plane conditions by whatever means possible and to hell with whether the golfer looks like an arbitrary model or not.

So what I'm trying to get my head around is this. When an average golfer comes for help with their slice - are you still going to fix the face with grip and twistaway and roll. Or does your understanding of how to line up the shaft mean that now you'll just be teaching folks how to square up a too-open face in time for impact?

And for the guy whose swing bottoms out a couple inches behind the ball - are you still relying on FATS and pivot action and COFF-drills? Or would you give more shaft lean, and a more downward AoA, to someone who needs it - by working on the away from the target hand motion at the beginning of the downswing?

Apologies in advance if I've bastardised some of your research - but you hopefully get the general thrust of the question.
 
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