The Release w/Brian Manzella & Michael Jacobs

[dbl]

Whats the recommendation? I must have missed it. Does it involve the shape of handpath on downswing?

natep in your post 1003 you asked about the recommendation I referred to. I went back thought Brian's posts and don't quite see it. I thought he indicated that it was probably better if the club is not parallel to the target line when you begin the away from target move, Anyway I did find this where he says what happens when you move toward or away from the targetline:

The "tumble" is caused by the proper AWAY FROM THE TARGET movement of the hands from the top.

If the hands move too much toward the target line, the weight of the club REVERSE TUMBLES the left arm and club.

 

[natep]

Thanks, dbl. I think I'm understanding the concepts better now.

 

[lia41985]

Definitely later than 3 because the hands hit low point before noon. Remember nothing should go towards the TARGET at start down so anything going at the TARGET LINE is effectively going forward and being pulled towards the target. That is why I said the camera is deceiving. The hands work away, but the hand path initially goes away from both the target line and the target to reach low point earlier and not be dragged.

This may be a helpful visual: Rickie Fowler close up target line view Shriners - YouTube

Is this move in line with what Sasho Mackenzie has been saying?

Wasn't it said that the only true way to see the hand path was from above the golfer looking down?

Arnold Palmer from above slo mo - YouTube

You can try to teach it but whether or not you can do it is another matter.I would say 90% of players don't or can't do it.

That move looks like a reverse carry to me.

If that is handpath away from the ball then it certainly is not imperative or even essential.

If you don't work on it you're gonna have to find another way to avoid being too steep. There is a flat spot in a real golf swing and the best players are striking down a lot less, in degrees, than they are leaning the club forward, in degrees. This move shallows out the approach. You can do other things with the body at impact, such as going into back extension earlier, to take out the steepness but the tendency this has on the golfer's axis of rotation might create more chaos than giving yourself room, via the move Lindsey is discussing, from the top.

natep: Thanks for that sequence of Player. Here are the key frames. Look at how vertical his hand path is and also how early his left arm gets vertical in the downswing. Amazing. As Rob Neal noted in the Symposium video, the transition is everything. The transition and the forces that it puts on the golfer's hand path and club are everything. After the transition, the show's basically over. That's why getting the backswing "right" is so important because it needs to, in addition to being a timing mechanism, put the golfer in a certain position for the transition to make the downswing automatic and optimal. With that in mind, I'm really starting to see the genius of Rickie Fowler's golf swing, especially his backswing. I normally let my right arm collapse so much on my backswing which causes me to lose so much width. The only way I can hit the ball is to stand both myself and the club up. Now, by keeping that right arm as high and as straight as possible, I've forced myself to really turn, and not slide, into my right hip (a big key Brian learned from Phil Cheatham at Doral) and as I transition, the club just automatically lays back in the way Lindsey describes. If I "stay in my posture" and pay attention to my axis of rotation on the downswing (as Aaron Zick discusses in the Symposium video) I can hit the ball great.

 

[Michael Finney]

i could be off base here, but it seems like we are getting too focused on the actual path the hands are taking from belly view......while that is important, i think what is more important is the "sharpness" of the hand path as it relates to the club's cog....

i realize i'm splitting hairs, but just wanted to throw that in

 

[lia41985]

i could be off base here, but it seems like we are getting too focused on the actual path the hands are taking from belly view......while that is important, i think what is more important is the "sharpness" of the hand path as it relates to the club's cog....

i realize i'm splitting hairs, but just wanted to throw that in

Michael: What do you mean by sharpness?

 

[Brian Manzella]

I'm out of pocket for the most part today....

But, here is an important reason for the proper move of the hands from the top. Now remember that when I say "away" from the target I mean to the golfer's right. Unless you are trying some goofy straight line hand path from the top, you OBVIOUSLY should have your hands and the club move to your right at start down?

Ok....back to one of the big reasons to make sure you do that correctly.

There are are 3 different places in the left arm and wrist that can rotate the club.

And the highest one up the arm---the rotator cuff---is almost always counter-rotated with too much tug.

The FEELING is that you start the arms going while the body "hangs out" at the top. BUT THAT IS PROBABLY JUST A FEEL. The actual kinematics are probably much different. We are working on that part of study.

This is a very improtant point....

There are kinematics (what position you are in at a certain point in time, for example), kinetics (what FORCES got you in that position), feels (what it FEELS LIKE to be in, or get in that position), and goals (what you were trying to do that got you in that position).

Project 1.68 is an attempt to uncover and describe the forces, the kinematics, of the swing.

Lot of that other stuff in golf instruction everywhere, and especially on the 'net.

 

[lia41985]

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/suMDmUzAC2g" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Mike O]

This is a very improtant point....

There are kinetics (what position you are in at a certain point in time, for example), kinematics (what FORCES got you in that position), feels (what it FEELS LIKE to be in, or get in that position), and goals (what you were trying to do that got you in that position).

This is a very important point and one missed in this thread for the most part. Since it is important and Brian was typing quickly - it should be noted that kinetics studies the forces and kinematics focuses on the motion - not the other way around.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Thanks Mike O....I did say it backwards and went back and fixed it.

 

[BertramSterling]

The more I think about this release, tumble, and the hands in transition, the more I think it is something that might feel totally different to how it looks on video.

As I posted earlier, the body is obviously rotating in the downswing so if you do nothing with the hands they are going to move horizontally (in DTL view). Theres talk about how this move at the top is essential for a good tumble, and I think that moving away from the target line is going to cancel out some of that horizontal. Since a vertical hand path is desired, some of this 'cancelling' is going to be required I would think? And its probably going to still look like it goes toward the target line a little in a DTL view...just less toward it.

Just throwing this out there..

 

[Michael Finney]

brief explanation

 

[otto6457]

Thanks Michael. That's about the first thing in this thread that I actually understand.

 

[spktho]

Yes, thank you Michael.

 

[Michael Jacobs]

brief explanation

Great video Mike... 100% the correct info

We need to get you a 'wendy's microphone'

 

[Mike O]

Posts

No problem - I knew what you meant but didn't want the typo to mislead anyone. For me - that post was the best one in the whole thread - by far.

 

[Mike O]

Thanks Mike O....I did say it backwards and went back and fixed it.

No problem - I knew what you meant and didn't want it to mislead anyone. For me - that post was the best one on this thread by far.

 

[mgranato]

It's a shame the valuable stuff in this thread can't be cataloged somehow.

 

[lia41985]

Thanks, Michael!

 

[jenhaoyen]

so let's review....

wait there are 100's of pages lol.


i'm starting from page 1 again

 

[Kevin Shields]

Did you ever get the last twosome in the Owl Creek member guest?

great video...super props for the explanation.