This use of the term confused me at first (normal to what?). I believe it is normal (perpendicular) to the direction of clubhead travel at impact. In other words, in the direction of the shaft, pointing from the clubhead back to the hands.
The Release w/Brian Manzella & Michael Jacobs
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This use of the term confused me at first (normal to what?). I believe it is normal (perpendicular) to the direction of clubhead travel at impact. In other words, in the direction of the shaft, pointing from the clubhead back to the hands.
Thought these images would help folks understand "Normal" to the club at impact.
Normal means PERPENDICULAR. In the case of the swing, it means PERPENDICULAR to the SWING ARC.
Here is some pics of Ben Hogan from 1948 & 1955 to some the difference between force perfectly (or nearly perfectly) NORMAL to the clubhead, and force somewhat not NORMAL do to some force across the shaft:
"Normal Force" is perpendicular to the swing arc. In my opinion, it is obvious that in the Power Golf swing:
He is not as "Normal" to the clubhead as in the Life Magazine swing:
He took a divot in the Power Golf one. Did he take a divot in the Magazine one? If not the difference may be incidental.
JEREMY5577
New
Might make more sense to use the left hand to pull back while the right hand pushes forward.
Brian can you elaborate a little on this? Not exactly sure what you mean. I've been trying not to pull anything with my left hand.
Brian can you elaborate a little on this? Not exactly sure what you mean. I've been trying not to pull anything with my left hand.
Michael Jacobs
Super Moderator
Not even close to what it means jeffy... You might want to scale it down a bit as you are discussing with experts and it's way over your head. There are 2 components to the force, a force that's normal and one that is tangental. Tangential would be like throwing a spear off the circle, normal would be the force that keeps the spear on the circle and faces towards the golfer at the bottom. The normal force at the bottom is far greater than any tangential force during the swing.
It would have to be.
Excellent point, wulsy. Impressive that you thought of that. Who knows, the lack of divot could mislead these guys into calling all tour "picker" swings "great."
I thought y'all were gonna simplify this stuff for us to the point where anyone can understand it. Yet here we are, 109 pages into the thread.....
Brian Manzella
Administrator
It's called science Jeff. And we are 100% correct when we say any other force would be wasted.
Geez...you mean all theses folks in the video of swings early in the thread were hacker/flippers.
Trust me, learn to toss around the coupling point STRONGER, and your flip will HAVE TO go away. Try to hold on, and you'll either power-puff it, look like you are working 3Xs as hard, or flip it worse.
I thought y'all were gonna simplify this stuff for us to the point where anyone can understand it. Yet here we are, 109 pages into the thread.....
Over 100 emails and phone calls thanking us, one from a doubting Thomas TGMer.
Lindsey Newman
New
"If I throw a dog a bone....I don't want to know if it tastes good...stop me whilst I'm walking again and I will.."
Seriously? Brian and team share stuff that costs time and money. If you don't understand the material that's given for free, then get in a car or a plane, pony up and dig in. These folks are professionals and don't have to do any of this.
Seriously? Brian and team share stuff that costs time and money. If you don't understand the material that's given for free, then get in a car or a plane, pony up and dig in. These folks are professionals and don't have to do any of this.
I was responding to Michael's dismissive comment that Jeff is in "way over his head." Which implies that this is highly sophisticated science that simply cannot be understood by simpletons like the rest of us out there.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
ALL GOLF PROS are "over their head" talking about science.
That's why we went out and found REAL SCIENTISTS.
Get it??
I'm no expert by any means. Not even close. But I still tend to be skeptical of analysis along the lines of "I can't explain to you why X is the case, but I promise you that it just....is."
Maybe it would have been better if Michael had said that a lot of this stuff is over his head rather than Jeff's.
Obviously not Brian, but I think I can explain it a little. Grip your golf club with your hands spread about a foot apart and do what Brian said and you will see the club head move toward the ball with the pivot point somewhere in between your hands. Kind of like using a hockey stick.
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
Lifter, if you are so skeptical or dont believe any of this is a good thing, why do you feel the need to participate in this thread ad nauseum? Telling everyone you're skeptical adds nothing and its one reason this thread is 109 pages. Useless posts.
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
I love it.
johnnymarlboro
New
They NEVER said they couldn't explain it. They also didn't say anything along the lines of "I can't explain to you why X is the case, but I promise you that it just....is." They've been explaining things constantly this whole thread. They've said over, and over, and over that this is not an "instructional" thread. Information only. You can't just say "I don't understand anything, make it simpler." and expect them to cater to that. Put forth a little effort. If you don't get something, and have a legitimate question then ask. Otherwise just wait for the instructional stuff as they've said they're working on.
Also since you apparently hadn't noticed, jeffy's comment was pretty derisive which is clearly why Michael responded the way he did.
jeffy
Banned
It was a joke. Mike. And you're welcome for that dinner I bought you.
I haven't gone through the whole thread but nothing I saw in your videos was particularly newsworthy to me. The stuff you said about aiming point and thrusting I never could get to work so I dismissed it long ago. Force across the shaft? Never made sense to me either. Sorry to hear you guys needed to go to scientists to have that all explained to you.
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Yes, you are right that Jeff could have been a little more diplomatic in his language. Still, whereas Michael responded to Jeff by saying "You're in way over your head," Brian responded with a seven-minute video that provided a lot of valuable information:
<iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/29635236?title=0&byline=0&portrait=0" width="400" height="300" frameborder="0" webkitAllowFullScreen allowFullScreen></iframe><p><a href="http://vimeo.com/29635236">Handle Dragging Hogan vs. Non-Handle dragging Hogan</a> from <a href="http://vimeo.com/user1093431">Brian Manzella</a> on <a href="http://vimeo.com">Vimeo</a>.</p>
Classy move by Brian, many thanks for that.
Meanwhile, Kevin above wrote a post that suggests that if I have reason to be skeptical of a fraction of this stuff, then I should just stay quiet and keep those reasons to myself. I'm surprised by that. Are you saying that you don't want Brian and Michael's ideas to be scrutinized on this thread? That this thread is intended to consist of high priests preaching to a non-critical choir and nothing more?
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Jeff,
You were being dismissive.
Mike has spent a LOT of time working on all of this, and NO GOLF PRO knows all of the science we have come across.
What should we do? Go ask another golf pro with a theory based on video?
You were being dismissive.
Mike has spent a LOT of time working on all of this, and NO GOLF PRO knows all of the science we have come across.
What should we do? Go ask another golf pro with a theory based on video?
jeffy
Banned
It's news to you that some of the greats are flippers? That's not a secret. As they got older, Snead, Hogan and Nicklaus flipped. Today you have Westwood, Oosthuizen, Martin Kaymer, Goosen, a few others. Most on tour today don't flip, especially the self-taught ones who I look to first to evaluate whether or not a swing component is important. My creedo: if Bubba, Gainey, JB or Stallings don't do it, it is is either not important, wrong or sub-optimal. They don't flip.
Some other great players, like Watson, were big time rollers, and he was pretty good at it. Luke Donald is a darn good roller today (who's number 1?!?!); Lefty and the new, improved Tiger less so. Davis Love has always rolled. But, like flippers, they have always been in a minority.
Turning to me, where did you get the idea that I'm trying to "hold on" to something? Hold on to what? I'm just trying to release the club with forearm rotation, left wrist flexion and right wrist extension, not by left wrist extension and right wrist flexion, which can cause fat and thin shots, in particular with the irons. And I have no idea what other force you are talking about.
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