Thank you footwedge for your due diligence/computer wizard skills. But, the other point is that even though it is intuitive to be up and in, IF someone makes a point of dragging through the impact like there is no tomorrow, in millisecond frames, it is conceivable that the second dot will indeed be lower,,,(but eventually return to the up and in trend nonetheless).
The Release w/Brian Manzella & Michael Jacobs
- Thread starter dschultz6072
- Start date
- Status
Last edited:
Good point on that pickup. So in a way, it shows that it is challenging to really "sync up pretty well" given the circumstances of having what one has to work with. But if the intention is to use a picture to clear up all doubts, then we must satisfy tough customers
Before I go further, a little disclosure: I am absolutely the person who knows the least about golf on this forum. No one can take that title from me because I don't play golf at all. I have 2 kids that play and my job is help them get better. Any good info from anyone is,,,fantastic!
Last edited:
gmbtempe
New
I wonder how much of the difference in the pictures is pivot related and how much of it has to do with anything conscious the hands/shoulders, or whatever actively trying to do?
All pro's look like the picture on the right from what I have read in this thread, and I would say all pro's have better pivots than amateurs, if you the get the left shoulder moving in, back, and up more efficiently than an amateur the hands are going to look more like the one on the right?
All pro's look like the picture on the right from what I have read in this thread, and I would say all pro's have better pivots than amateurs, if you the get the left shoulder moving in, back, and up more efficiently than an amateur the hands are going to look more like the one on the right?
johnnymarlboro
New
I still can't see Michael's picture.
BertramSterling
New
The driver swing looks different somehow, like more of a swing than the previous post..less holding on to any angles (or so it appears to my untrained eye). Closer to what is being discussed here, I would think?
It would be interesting to see a comparison of the two, with the dots..
It would be interesting to see a comparison of the two, with the dots..
I think what MJ and BM are trying to convey is what appears to be happening in elite players' swings (Rory being a prime example) and how we might learn from that. Obviously, we all have different physical attributes, etc. to make each of our swings unique. What I hope to get from this is enough understanding of what is going on and how I can use this knowledge to improve my own swing.
BertramSterling
New
I think "the pull back, run up and jump" has some part to play, but how do you explain the short game shots? I've hit some good little shots thinking about allowing my hands to be moving in while the club is thrown down and out..I have to consciously do this with the hands, and I've found thinking about moving them up leads to thin shots, but inward works fine (and in = a little up anyway I believe). You may find a different feel.
But yes, I expect if you didn't actively move the hands out (and down) toward the target line they may well be carried up and in by a good pivot.
Concur with that perspective,,probably shared by everyone coming to this forum trying to improve.
Last edited:
jeffy
Banned
It is different. I was trying to "hold the angle" in the driver swing. Still flipped. This past Sunday, in the first video posted, I wasn't "trying to hold the angle". As I said earlier, I was working on forearm rotation, flexion and extension that day.
Here is a gap wedge from last month when I WAS trying to "hold the angle", and flipping, something I WAS NOT doing in the 9.25.11 pitching wedge swing. Sorry about the image quality.
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/aGDwDupZUmM?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Last edited:
azcrlyglfpro
New
The Jeffy thread
I am getting a little tired of the Jeffy debate, some people are never going to believe. Can we we get back to the release and how we control trajectory with this move in place?
I am getting a little tired of the Jeffy debate, some people are never going to believe. Can we we get back to the release and how we control trajectory with this move in place?
jeffy
Banned
Actually, I do believe. As I posted to Mike above, the concepts are all familiar to me, going back to Ballard 30 years ago. You guys are just projecting that I don't. That's wrong.
birly-shirly
New
Here is a subtle but important difference.
And, more or less, the point of this whole thread:
So is the underlying issue that Jeffy's handpath isn't LOW enough as it passes the right thigh?
Brian Manzella
Administrator
We have PLENTY of 3D of PGA Tour Players and regular golfers with PERFECT positioning of the coupling point.
Same deal, over and over.
Yup.
My Take:
Here is what I have gotten out of this entire discussion:
1. Releases are individual to players. If Sergio tried to release like Watson or vice versa, we would never have heard of either. If either tried to look like the other, would also never have heard of either.
2. A full free release allows the club to pass thru the line up. The line up is only a moment in time and any attempt to hold the club in line with the lead arm will not allow the club to reach maximum speed. There should be no attempt to make the lead wrist do “anything” (either stay flat or bend) – the lead wrist should just react to the momentum of the club – which in most cases will be a combination of some bending and some roll as the club passes thru the in line moment.
3. The point where the club contacts the ball can be before, at, or after the club passes thru “in line”. That point would influence both trajectory and direction – “the D Plane”
4. Good players (Tour Pros, etc) all have some forward lean (at least with normal iron shots) but forward lean is always decreasing as the club approaches “in line”, so the amount of forward lean would be greater 1” before impact than it is at impact. Any attempt to maintain a “constant” amount of forward lean is “handle dragging” and detrimental to maximum speed. If you want more forward lean at impact, have impact occur “earlier” in the swing – making the appropriate D Plane adjustments.
5. In a free release, there is no attempt to square the club. Once the club shaft reaches “last parallel” in the downswing, the face is “squaring” at a constant rate. It should always be “square” to the club path at any given point during the last 90 degrees prior to impact. There should be no attempt to “twist” the club about the shaft to square it. Relaxed hands, wrists, arms are key here.
6. The pivot starts the downswing – weight returns to centered – then the pivot slows as the club builds momentum, the pivot stops for a moment in time as the club passes thru “in line” and then the body and weight are pulled into the finish by the momentum of the club.
7. There should be no “FATS” after the shaft reaches “last parallel” in the downswing. The harder or faster the lead shoulder / lead arm can pull upwards (the “jump”) as the club approaches in line, the faster the club can move. The clubhead is still moving down – the “jump” is pulling the hands upward and inward.
8. The coupling point is moving faster earlier in the downswing that it is as it approaches in line. At in line, the coupling point is still (note the butt of the club would be moving slightly backwards at this moment) and then the coupling point is pulled into the finish. Any attempt to move the coupling point (or worse the butt end) past in line is “handle dragging” – it must be pulled by the momentum of the club.
Well this was longer that I thought it would be. Bruce
Here is what I have gotten out of this entire discussion:
1. Releases are individual to players. If Sergio tried to release like Watson or vice versa, we would never have heard of either. If either tried to look like the other, would also never have heard of either.
2. A full free release allows the club to pass thru the line up. The line up is only a moment in time and any attempt to hold the club in line with the lead arm will not allow the club to reach maximum speed. There should be no attempt to make the lead wrist do “anything” (either stay flat or bend) – the lead wrist should just react to the momentum of the club – which in most cases will be a combination of some bending and some roll as the club passes thru the in line moment.
3. The point where the club contacts the ball can be before, at, or after the club passes thru “in line”. That point would influence both trajectory and direction – “the D Plane”
4. Good players (Tour Pros, etc) all have some forward lean (at least with normal iron shots) but forward lean is always decreasing as the club approaches “in line”, so the amount of forward lean would be greater 1” before impact than it is at impact. Any attempt to maintain a “constant” amount of forward lean is “handle dragging” and detrimental to maximum speed. If you want more forward lean at impact, have impact occur “earlier” in the swing – making the appropriate D Plane adjustments.
5. In a free release, there is no attempt to square the club. Once the club shaft reaches “last parallel” in the downswing, the face is “squaring” at a constant rate. It should always be “square” to the club path at any given point during the last 90 degrees prior to impact. There should be no attempt to “twist” the club about the shaft to square it. Relaxed hands, wrists, arms are key here.
6. The pivot starts the downswing – weight returns to centered – then the pivot slows as the club builds momentum, the pivot stops for a moment in time as the club passes thru “in line” and then the body and weight are pulled into the finish by the momentum of the club.
7. There should be no “FATS” after the shaft reaches “last parallel” in the downswing. The harder or faster the lead shoulder / lead arm can pull upwards (the “jump”) as the club approaches in line, the faster the club can move. The clubhead is still moving down – the “jump” is pulling the hands upward and inward.
8. The coupling point is moving faster earlier in the downswing that it is as it approaches in line. At in line, the coupling point is still (note the butt of the club would be moving slightly backwards at this moment) and then the coupling point is pulled into the finish. Any attempt to move the coupling point (or worse the butt end) past in line is “handle dragging” – it must be pulled by the momentum of the club.
Well this was longer that I thought it would be. Bruce
dschultz6072
New
Are the Flammer and the V-harness worth using in the context of this discussion? Or at least worth begging your local pro to buy so you could screw around with it?
Blehnhard I'm not in agreement on some of your summary and wonder if you've added some things to the Manzella Jacobs information. Perhaps I'm wrong. Point 4 about forward lean is a very specific point and say it is decreasing as you come into the ball. That is possibly true but seems would be affected by factors outside this information. For example how one hits a low shot might produce a different closing situation than you've indicated, at least to me. As to point 5, I don't recall Brian/Mike saying this but perhaps overlooked it. Again how would the face behave in a hold fade where one is lining up? Point 6, I'm not sure Brian/Mike said what started the downswing, but perhaps I overlooked it. The emphasis was on initial direction of the clubhead and this motion is combined with a good pivot - "good pivot" to be defined independent of these 100 pages. This thread centers on 3 main points, imo - club initial direction in initial downswing, lining up (which relates to CP rotation), and CP path. Oh yes, also shaft deflections and impact; and various comments on handle dragging problems.
Last edited:
Anyone else find that moving the hands to 4 o'clock and clubhead to 5 o'clock gets them severly underplane? I just can't get that move. Closing the gap from the top, check. Squaring the face with the jump and no FATS, check. From the top, getting the hands deeper and clubhead deeper still? Disaster for me.
I'm hitting the ball much better already (4 of my lowest 5 rounds ever in the last month) but whenver I try this 4 o'clock move I swing much too inside out and suffer with all the normal misses of this kind of path.
Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread. This is a real game changer for us reforming aiming point types.
I'm hitting the ball much better already (4 of my lowest 5 rounds ever in the last month) but whenver I try this 4 o'clock move I swing much too inside out and suffer with all the normal misses of this kind of path.
Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread. This is a real game changer for us reforming aiming point types.
- Status