Lindsey Newman
New
"early release"? have all the lag you want, but you better have properly TIMED release.
The Release w/Brian Manzella & Michael Jacobs
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Dariusz J.
New member
This discussion must be ended with a conclusion. Brian, is it possible to evaluate scientifically what scenario promotes the highest SS all other things equal:
- to add SS by letting wrist naturally bend/hinge in the impact zone?
- to add SS by crossover of forearms in the impact zone ?
- to change nothing horizontally and vertically ?
There is no other scenario possible in this context. We do not want either to think about scenarios including deliberate action aimed on doing/not doing something for obvious reasons. Knowing Jeffy (and he's not stupid guy), he is not promoting a silly TGM drag-hangle approach but just wants to know if e.g. slap-hinge can add speed comparing to push. The more he knows well Cotton terms. If I am wrong, he will correct me.
We know from simple physics and anatomy that in case of the two first scenarios, the pivot must stall to let the kinetic chain flow a bit earlier to the more distal parts (earlier in case of the first, much earlier in case of the second) -comparing to the third one. But noone of us mortals can be sure which one is the most effective.
Same question should be directed independently to Tapio, who can test all scenarios very objectively. And that will be the end of it.
Lastly, listen to Lindsey above. I said a similar thing earlier - noone promotes flipping, bending, or casting here. C'mon, you all are not so stupid, I guess.
Cheers
- to add SS by letting wrist naturally bend/hinge in the impact zone?
- to add SS by crossover of forearms in the impact zone ?
- to change nothing horizontally and vertically ?
There is no other scenario possible in this context. We do not want either to think about scenarios including deliberate action aimed on doing/not doing something for obvious reasons. Knowing Jeffy (and he's not stupid guy), he is not promoting a silly TGM drag-hangle approach but just wants to know if e.g. slap-hinge can add speed comparing to push. The more he knows well Cotton terms. If I am wrong, he will correct me.
We know from simple physics and anatomy that in case of the two first scenarios, the pivot must stall to let the kinetic chain flow a bit earlier to the more distal parts (earlier in case of the first, much earlier in case of the second) -comparing to the third one. But noone of us mortals can be sure which one is the most effective.
Same question should be directed independently to Tapio, who can test all scenarios very objectively. And that will be the end of it.
Lastly, listen to Lindsey above. I said a similar thing earlier - noone promotes flipping, bending, or casting here. C'mon, you all are not so stupid, I guess.
Cheers
jeffy
Banned
I don't see the failure of logic you do. Brian's model found that extreme lag is a significant power drain. However, the model disagrees with observations: it predicts that the longest drivers will not have extreme lag, but we can see that isn't true. In scientific jargon, the model has been "falsified".
Some suggest that the big hitters with extreme lag are just better athletes. But no satisfactory explanation is given why the better athletes would gravitate towards a less efficient release, in particular the self-taught ones who are untainted by conventional instruction, like Bubba, Gainey, JB Holmes and Stallings:
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magicmarker
New
Agreed, but you can clearly see the extreme lag late into the downswing, no early release.
Here is another imperfect pic, a little after impact. Looks like he "lines it up" just fine despite the extereme lag.
I like that Woodland is getting some attention around here because I really like his swing.
It's possible that Woodland falls into the second category discussed in the 1st MJ video in this thread.
He was a college basketball player, I'm sure he has a lot of hand and wrist strength and hip flexibility as well.
I think the away from the target with the hands start down was more beneficial for handle draggers who were holding the left wrist flat and not really releasing much at all.
I personally found the greater control over the line-up because of this release far more helpful TO ME and I would agree with you that it appears he lined it up pretty well.
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Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
No disrespect, but for the life of me, if this is how you truly feel, why do you continue to hang around here?
willgolfer
New
The release has added distance, improved ball-striking, and accuracy to my game.
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
The pictures of "extreme lag" and such really show a lack of understanding. The intent is still very important. The more i try to do the main points in this thread, the more "lag" i appear to have in pictures. Looking at pictures will never show what the golfer is trying to do. Stop the madness with these pictures.
jenhaoyen
New
my friend used a 300 fps video camera taped me.
My hands were forward and released properly.
BUT, it felt like i released from the top.
WEIRD HUH haha
jeffy
Banned
This doesn't quite add up. When I asked what accounted for the extreme lag, I was told it was from power-robbing torquing. That was the "punch line" from the midnight video. As I have tried to point out through these illustrations, the biggest hitters have extreme lag, which falsifies any model that says the longest hitters will not have power-robbing extreme lag.
Now you are saying something different: that extreme lag comes from trying really hard to do the "main points in this thread". Do you mind briefly summarizing them for me? Other than bending the left wrist post-impact and going wide from the top, I can't come up with any. BTW, I spent a few years doing both under the tutelage of David Glenz many years ago. I never got "extreme lag".
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
The fact that you never you got it means nothing. Not everybody is meant to get it, David Glenz or not. And I never said that extreme lag comes from anything, only that it appeared i have more when i try to have the focus elsewhere. Thats me, not anybody else.
natep
New
Jeffy,
Not sure how technical you want to get about it, but the thread linked below contains an analysis of the release by Mandrin, it explains how speed and hand path are important factors in determining how and when the "lag" is released.
http://www.brianmanzella.com/golfing-discussions/16056-release-action.html
Not sure how technical you want to get about it, but the thread linked below contains an analysis of the release by Mandrin, it explains how speed and hand path are important factors in determining how and when the "lag" is released.
http://www.brianmanzella.com/golfing-discussions/16056-release-action.html
jeffy
Banned
Focus where elsewhere?
jeffy
Banned
Thanks, but that's over my head.
All good swings are in the process of lining it up. Some can line it up later than others (more lag). But they are trying to line it up none the less. The ball is struck at some point in the lining up process - some will strike it earlier in the process (hands seem more ahead) and some later in the process. The main point is that the club should always be in the process of lining it up (and then passing thru lineup).
If you retard the process of lining it up (trying to hold any position), you will lose speed.
Everyone will "look" different in performing the process of lining it up.
If you line it up early, you will probably need more "hand speed" thru the impact area. If the line up process starts late, hand speed needs to be less.
Trying to copy what someone else looks like is sheer folly. I have done countless damage to my game in trying to get more "lag or delay". I am a natural sweep releaser (sorry TGM term) and not a snap releaser. I widen the angle early but still have some forware lean at impact when I am at my best. If I new this "s--t" when I was playing the Senior Tour in the mid 90's, I would have done a whole lot better.
For "goodness sake" do whatever it takes to make the clubhead move as fast as possible at the bottom and stop worrying about "right or wrong".
Bruce
If you retard the process of lining it up (trying to hold any position), you will lose speed.
Everyone will "look" different in performing the process of lining it up.
If you line it up early, you will probably need more "hand speed" thru the impact area. If the line up process starts late, hand speed needs to be less.
Trying to copy what someone else looks like is sheer folly. I have done countless damage to my game in trying to get more "lag or delay". I am a natural sweep releaser (sorry TGM term) and not a snap releaser. I widen the angle early but still have some forware lean at impact when I am at my best. If I new this "s--t" when I was playing the Senior Tour in the mid 90's, I would have done a whole lot better.
For "goodness sake" do whatever it takes to make the clubhead move as fast as possible at the bottom and stop worrying about "right or wrong".
Bruce
jeffy
Banned
Thanks. You lost me at the last part. What do players do differently to line up early or later?
Steve Greffen
New
Thanks, Brian and Mike! I owe YOU guys another dinner for putting together another video for me at midnight. I loved that Italian place in Manorville and can't wait to go back.
OK, if I understood the "punch line": a player that was "trying" to get to a hands-ahead impact had a 102mph swingspeed with a three-wood and, according to the model, if he stopped trying to do that, he'd get 11 more mph.
That doesn't necessarily surprise me, although that IS quite a jump. I have seen plenty of players, you two included, that struck me as having lower clubhead speed than their potential because of trying to "force" a hands-ahead impact.
Since you brought it up, let me ask a question regarding clubhead speed. Here we have a bunch of players that have extreme lag and are among the leaders in clubhead speed on tour, and we have no reason to believe that they are trying to "force" a hands-ahead impact in a speed robbing fashion. So what are they doing differently than you two, or the guy your scientist measured?
JB Holmes, First, 125mph:
Gary Woodland, Third, 122mph:
Dustin Johnson, Fifth, 121mph:
Jerry Kelly, who releases early, is 178th in clubhead speed at 106.5 mph. Rocco Mediate, who I know you guys like, is 182st at 106 mph. And there is another guy (who keeps disappearing from here) with an early release that lines up the way you like who is dead last at 185th with 103.5mph.
Same thing is true in Europe, where Quiros is the driving distance leader at 313 yards, and he has extreme lag:
Some top Europeans who release the lag early are 20 yards behind him:
Lee Westwood, 294 yards:
Ross Fisher, 293 yards:
Louis Oosthuizen, 291 yards:
Yeah, I know these lag angles aren't measured in 3D and the camera angles aren't perfect, but doesn't this information suggest some sort of disconnect in your model? If JB starts releasing like Jerry Kelly, his clubhead speed is going to 136mph from his current 125? If Alvaro starts releasing like Oosthuizen, he's going to pick up 25 yards? I don't think so. Why isn't Westwood already outdriving Alvaro? Lee's a big, strong guy. I think there must be a "good" way to get extreme lag and added distance, because that is what the biggest hitters are doing! That's what I'm trying to find out. So should you guys!
Hi Jeff.
I know it will be tough for me to explain how I think you are having a hard time understanding the ideas but I will try. What your still photos don't show is where the torques are happening and how the hand path works for them to get to their lagged position. Just because they have forward lean does not necessarily mean that they are not products of the well timed release and proper or optimized releases. If you were able to know when the best time to add a torque or leave it alone and it added speed to your swing without any incremental work you'd sign up right? I think these players have been optimized by their innate feel and athleticness.
Thanks and hope you've been well.
Steve
Steve Greffen
New
Adam Scott:
Sergio Garcia:
Francesco Molinari:
Edoardo Molinari:
Ben Hogan:
Yes a wonderful post and one that understands what you are trying to promote at the release.
Jeffy when you don't want to read and understand a Mandrin article, I think it makes your whole sequence of requests look insignificant. Rather than looking at some forces and torques and mathematical expressions, you define a system unto your self with your own forces and terms (your use of "lag" may well be different than 10 other people's) and interrogate BM and MJ on how their presentation doesn't quite fit into your box you've put the golf swing world into. You don't want precision nor have the the rigor of studying swings in 3D.
If early and late releases are both possible and good for the golfers using them, it gets back to choice. Golfer A from your top sets of pictures may well like the combination of precision and repeat ability that HIS type swing gives him. Same goes for golfer E in the bottom pictures. There are too many personal tradeoffs for us to make decision for those guys ourselves. BUT, what the backward calculated model can reveal and POSSIBLY TEST in the future is that torque released earlier might improve CHS. For now isn't it enough to have an area that might offer improvement and which could be tested, whether with humans or robots or whatever?
If early and late releases are both possible and good for the golfers using them, it gets back to choice. Golfer A from your top sets of pictures may well like the combination of precision and repeat ability that HIS type swing gives him. Same goes for golfer E in the bottom pictures. There are too many personal tradeoffs for us to make decision for those guys ourselves. BUT, what the backward calculated model can reveal and POSSIBLY TEST in the future is that torque released earlier might improve CHS. For now isn't it enough to have an area that might offer improvement and which could be tested, whether with humans or robots or whatever?
Steve Greffen
New
Like Kevin said, no disrespect to you personally, but I think that their research is broad enough to include many different experts in the field and on this forum who knows who is who? A self described expert or well informed person that is just a screen name is hard to play devils advocate or questioning findings. I believe the findings should be verified, questioned and sought out approval from other experts, just not unknown forum members. Just my opinion.
Steve Greffen
New
Yes! What I was trying to say to Jeff. Thanks!
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