The Release w/Brian Manzella & Michael Jacobs

[dschultz6072]

Here's an idea I hope might help people understand the coupling point torques you are trying to create on the handle. Hook your left index and your right pinky together, extend your arms out a little so they're comfortable, and create a game of tug of war with your hands on that "coupling point", with the right hand tugging away from your body and the left hand tugging toward your body. You *should* feel your arm muscles activate. That's my best explanation of how the force gets generated from the handle.

 

[willgolfer]

Here's an idea I hope might help people understand the coupling point torques you are trying to create on the handle. Hook your left index and your right pinky together, extend your arms out a little so they're comfortable, and create a game of tug of war with your hands on that "coupling point", with the right hand tugging away from your body and the left hand tugging toward your body. You *should* feel your arm muscles activate. That's my best explanation of how the force gets generated from the handle.

Is this something you came up with on your own? You create a conscious application of these torques? My feel from the beginning has been to move the coupling point up as it moved past my rear inside thigh and let the torques do what they do automatically. It has worked great but now I'm wondering if there is another step?

 

[dschultz6072]

Is this something you came up with on your own? You create a conscious application of these torques? My feel from the beginning has been to move the coupling point up as it moved past my rear inside thigh and let the torques do what they do automatically. It has worked great but now I'm wondering if there is another step?

Yes. Make the clubhead do the work.

 

[natep]

What we have to remember is that flatter the shaft, more lag there seems to be watched on 2D screen from face on direction.

Players like Sergio Garcia seems to create lot of lag at tradition, but that's not increasing. He drops the ch so much behind him by pronation of left forearm, that it seems to increase. The same thing with many others and that's why I asked those angles. Further from the target line the ch is relative to the hands, more lag seems to player have. Thats because of camera lenses and 2D illusions in swing. The difference can be even 20 degrees or more between players that have the same amount one angle between their left arm and shaft.

Brian has been saying for a while now that the best angle for video is 90 degrees to the swing plane, I would imagine that these measurements are done from that angle because of the reasons you mention.

 

[footwedge]

Here's an idea I hope might help people understand the coupling point torques you are trying to create on the handle. Hook your left index and your right pinky together, extend your arms out a little so they're comfortable, and create a game of tug of war with your hands on that "coupling point", with the right hand tugging away from your body and the left hand tugging toward your body. You *should* feel your arm muscles activate. That's my best explanation of how the force gets generated from the handle.

How do you get a free wheeling clubhead with the ying yang on the grip?

 

[BertramSterling]

Also interested in how actively this should be applied - as long as the force is rotational and not across the shaft, is this 'tug of war' valid? It would suggest a last second closing of the club face, but I'm not averse to a timing based idea (heaven forbid we can't automate everything and start suggesting some element of co-ordination may be needed to play good golf..)

 

[footwedge]

Also interested in how actively this should be applied - as long as the force is rotational and not across the shaft, is this 'tug of war' valid? It would suggest a last second closing of the club face, but I'm not averse to a timing based idea (heaven forbid we can't automate everything and start suggesting some element of co-ordination may be needed to play good golf..)

It may be a tug of war but I don't think it's between your hands fighting each other, maybe the clubhead mass wanting to go somewhere and you are going to go somewhere else, the tug of war is between the clubhead and you, that may feel like the right hand pulling in the opposite direction than the left because the mass of the clubhead is going one way and your intention is to go the other way with your torso.JMO.

To me that's one of the problems with the concept of rhythm in tgm everything going at the same rpm's in the same direction. If you did that how could you get a well timed release?

 

[fronesis]

I'm an academic, so I love debate.

But I must ask a question to all of those folks who are still here arguing with Brian (and everyone else):

have you gone out and tried to implement these ideas on the range or the course?

Because I have, and like everyone else on this board who has tried it and reported back: WOW does it make a lot of sense. I've hit more greens in each of the past 3 rounds than I hit in any of the previous 10 rounds. I am hitting my driver like I've never hit it before, and my short game just feels more natural than it has in about 20 years. In the last 4 rounds I've putted horrendously in all rounds but one. The one round I putted well I shot 69; the other three rounds I still shot 76 or better with 33 putts or more.

I only add my 2 cents because I'm a bit surprised so many people are still doubting these results. It works.

 

[jeffy]

I'm an academic, so I love debate.

have you gone out and tried to implement these ideas on the range or the course?

Yes. I played that way for many years. David Glenz (the 1998 National PGA Teacher of the Year who I worked with from the mid-'90s through the early-'00s) taught essentially the same thing. Similar principals were taught by Manuel de la Torre in his outstanding text Understanding the Golf Swing which I relied on in the mid-'00s. Results were OK, but nothing like you experienced. I was a solid 12 handicap.

If I had to guess, I'd say that you have long been a very good player that was heavily TGM-influenced. Is that close to correct?

 

[JTillery]

Fronesis, what exactly are you trying to do (or what do you feel like you are doing?)

 

[sacto84]

Here's an idea I hope might help people understand the coupling point torques you are trying to create on the handle. Hook your left index and your right pinky together, extend your arms out a little so they're comfortable, and create a game of tug of war with your hands on that "coupling point", with the right hand tugging away from your body and the left hand tugging toward your body. You *should* feel your arm muscles activate. That's my best explanation of how the force gets generated from the handle.

In the November issue of Golf Digest on page 126 in the "Breaking 80" section, Randy Smith, a teaching professional had heard from another player (an ex pro baseball player turned pro golfer) that "at impact pull with the left hand and push with the right hand to create clubhead speed." He tried it, liked it, and adopted it in his teaching by instructing his students to "feel as if they are pulling the handle in half through impact." That seems to be a focus on the CP and the torque created in that area. I tried on the range and it has merit. Key for me is to do it at impact, not too much before.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Yes. I played that way for many years. David Glenz (the 1998 National PGA Teacher of the Year who I worked with from the mid-'90s through the early-'00s) taught essentially the same thing. Similar principals were taught by Manuel de la Torre in his outstanding text Understanding the Golf Swing which I relied on in the mid-'00s. Results were OK, but nothing like you experienced. I was a solid 12 handicap.

If I had to guess, I'd say that you have long been a very good player that was heavily TGM-influenced. Is that close to correct?

Jeffy,

David Glenz and Manual DeLaTorre both have given MULTIPLE presentations at events where I was in attendance.

Glenz NEVER talked about anything like this:

"First you pull in the direction of the club, then you do a good push-pull with your hands—making sure that the radius is in the ground, then yank up on the grip as hard as you can."

DeLaTorre HATED any "levering." So the push-pull about the coupling point is TOTALLY PASSE to him.

 

[JEREMY5577]

In the November issue of Golf Digest on page 126 in the "Breaking 80" section, Randy Smith, a teaching professional had heard from another player (an ex pro baseball player turned pro golfer) that "at impact pull with the left hand and push with the right hand to create clubhead speed." He tried it, liked it, and adopted it in his teaching by instructing his students to "feel as if they are pulling the handle in half through impact." That seems to be a focus on the CP and the torque created in that area. I tried on the range and it has merit. Key for me is to do it at impact, not too much before.

This EXACT point was brought up a month ago on this thread by Brian when he answered a question of mine. Go to Page 108 post 1072. Spktho elaborated more about it on post 1094. I think the key is not to over do it. Like you said don't do it too early

 

[jeffy]

Jeffy,

David Glenz and Manual DeLaTorre both have given MULTIPLE presentations at events where I was in attendance.

Glenz NEVER talked about anything like this:

"First you pull in the direction of the club, then you do a good push-pull with your hands—making sure that the radius is in the ground, then yank up on the grip as hard as you can."

DeLaTorre HATED any "levering." So the push-pull about the coupling point is TOTALLY PASSE to him.

Yeah, David was always careful not to scare anybody.

You're right: to de la Torre, levering was "force against the shaft". Didn't like that at all.

 

[Lindsey Newman]

Excellent point Tee. Death to 2D!

Absolutely. What you would have thought about hitting a golf ball if you never saw video of impact. It really is unreal. The pictures post impact/post divot possibly created a negative effect in golf instruction that has plagued many for decades.

 

[TeeAce]

Brian has been saying for a while now that the best angle for video is 90 degrees to the swing plane, I would imagine that these measurements are done from that angle because of the reasons you mention.

Haven't notice that. This was hi's answer and also all the åictures people use:

"When looking at a face-on view of a right-handed golfer, all angles in my model are measured counter-clockwise from a downward vertical position. So, 0 degrees is at 6 o'clock, +90 degrees is at 3 o'clock, -90 degrees is at 9 o'clock, -30 degrees is at 7 o'clock, etc. Also, when I refer to the angle of the hands (as in my previous e-mail), I mean the angle of a ray connecting the swing center to the pivot point of the hands (i.e., the coupling point). So, at 0 degrees, for example, the hands are at their lowest point and at -90 degrees, they're horizontally level with the swing center, on the non-target side of the golfer."

There is also some other things without clear definition, or I haven't seen them as being new in they forum (so please don't loose your nerves with my questions), but how the swing center is defined? Just to know if we use about same point there.

 

[fronesis]

Fronesis, what exactly are you trying to do (or what do you feel like you are doing?)

Did you mean with my post above, or in my current swing? (Not being a jerk: serious question.)

In my post...
I was just trying to point out that I think Brian and Michael's fundamental points here simply make SO MUCH SENSE if you try to implement them on the course. And thus, I was a bit surprised that the "debate" still seems to be going on, since after working on these concepts in my swing, they just seem to work so well.

In my swing...
I just tossed out the idea of trying to "hold on" to any angles. I'm thinking about being "normal" at impact. I'm thinking about Michael's first video and the fundamental idea of the hands reaching low point before the club head does, with the hands moving up and in prior to impact. I'm also thinking a lot about his later video when he talks about the hands swinging on a lower orbit than the club head. So I'm focusing a bit on maintaining an "offset angle" and trying to get my arms more vertical (not reaching out to the ball ) in the downswing. I'm also thinking about staying wide when I start the downswing.

But that's a whole list of things that have gone through my head reading this thread and on the range. In my actual swing no the course I'm just thinking: make a good no popout backswing, and then from the top try to stay wide and "line it up." The results have really amazed me.

 

[jeffy]

I just tossed out the idea of trying to "hold on" to any angles.

So, you were thinking about "holding on" to angles. Sounds like very power-robbing TGM.

 

[fronesis]

If I had to guess, I'd say that you have long been a very good player that was heavily TGM-influenced. Is that close to correct?

I wouldn't say I was heavily TGM influenced, because I played a lot of competitive golf long before I'd ever heard of TGM. But I do think that prior to this very thread, I believed in order to square the club face properly (without flipping) that I need to maintain a flat left wrist and drag the handle enough to create (with my hands) forward lean.

For me this thread contains TONS OF NEW information, and has revolutionized the way I think about releasing the club. Most importantly, I now see that I can square the clubface without holding onto anything or manipulating the club head. I can square the club face by releasing from the top and staying wide. That may be old news to you, but it's totally new and eye-opening to me.

This thread also makes much more sense, for me, out of some D plane knowledge, since I can "swing left" without having to hold onto an angle and drag the handle left. I can swing left because after impact my left wrist bends and my right wrist straightens and the club head goes left much harder than it used to. Swinging left was a difficult thought for me before, because I was never a hooker, but I can now see how it works.

For most of my life I was a slicer, and despite shooting some very low numbers in competition, I never really changed that until NSA helped me fix the club face. But for the first time in my life, after reading this thread, I have hit some drives where I made contact with the ball with a club face open to the tatarget line and yet still hit a draw (e.g club face open 2 degrees to target but path 3 degrees inside out). Trying to HOLD ON, I could never even imagine how to do this, but releasing from the top makes it possible. I have hit the ball SO MUCH straighter by just trying to "go normal."

 

[Brian Manzella]

So, you were thinking about "holding on" to angles. Sounds like very power-robbing TGM.

Jeff.

Obviously, you know that I have no problem doling out some blame to TGM in this release fiasco.

But, it should take NOWHERE NEAR 100% of the blame.

You also seemed to have NOT learned that ANGLES in video DO NOT SHOW the Kinetics.