The Release w/Brian Manzella & Michael Jacobs

[JEREMY5577]

Jeffy! If you want to line it up later and look like JB Holmes, make an extremely athletic move. One like you've never felt before. It's going to involve your right elbow making a ballistic side arm motion and possibly having both feet off the ground at impact. It's not going to happen from any swing thought you get on this or any other forum. Give it a rest! Now get out there and start stretching so you don't throw your back out.

 

[Dariusz J.]

Sacrificed some time for you just because I am a good will man:

http://www.brianmanzella.com/golfing-discussions/15909-tiger-questions-not-bashings-6.html

http://www.brianmanzella.com/golfing-discussions/15409-jimmy-mclean-perfection-13.html

and where I was not involved, thanks God:

http://www.brianmanzella.com/golfing-discussions/15594-hes-best-now-what-3.html#post197122

http://www.brianmanzella.com/golfing-discussions/15409-jimmy-mclean-perfection-7.html#post195072

Was easier than you thought, I presume. Would found more but sacrificed 15 mins of my life using the search function of this Forum - anyhow knowing that no matter what you'll turn it upside down, you anonymous loser. ROFL. Now admit it or shut up LOL.

Cheers

 

[jeffy]

Hi Jeff.

I know it will be tough for me to explain how I think you are having a hard time understanding the ideas but I will try. What your still photos don't show is where the torques are happening and how the hand path works for them to get to their lagged position. Just because they have forward lean does not necessarily mean that they are not products of the well timed release and proper or optimized releases.

I never said they weren't products of a well-timed release. And I know the pictures don't show where the torque is happening. That's why I'm still asking the same questions: what is happening where and when?

If you were able to know when the best time to add a torque or leave it alone and it added speed to your swing without any incremental work you'd sign up right? I think these players have been optimized by their innate feel and athleticness.

Probably true. But why can't we figure out how to do that optimization and teach it?

Thanks and hope you've been well.

Steve

Thanks, like wise. It would have been fun to be there on Tuesday but I had an afternoon meeting. Maybe next time!

Take care,

Jeff

 

[jeffy]

Jeffy! If you want to line it up later and look like JB Holmes, make an extremely athletic move. One like you've never felt before. It's going to involve your right elbow making a ballistic side arm motion and possibly having both feet off the ground at impact. It's not going to happen from any swing thought you get on this or any other forum. Give it a rest! Now get out there and start stretching so you don't throw your back out.

Well, finally an answer! Thanks.

 

[drewyallop]

That question is over my head. Better ask a scientist!

Jeffy,

I'll try again. Should the question be: can the late releasers achieve higher club head speed by releasing earlier? In your discussion you seem to be assuming that the late releaser's are achieving maximum club head speeds because they are faster than your sample of early releasers. But that is no proof that even more speed cannot be achieved with an earlier release.


I am reminded of the Trackman article on hitting up on the ball with the driver. Something like if Tiger did hit up on the ball he could get another 30 yards.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Jeffy is doing nothing but challenging Brian and MJ's findings by using another teacher's theories. I'm surprised that is allowed.

I have no problem with the way he did it.

These ideas must be explored.

True gold can be tested in fire.

Damn straight.

jeffy, you got 2 options: 1/ ask a scientist or 2/ ask Alvaro, Dustin, JB etc etc.

What cannot be disputed is that you have a valid point.

I would call it a valid "observation."

If I know I am right I would like to receive criticism from everywhere because I can defend against it easily and, consequently, strengthen my position. Escaping from discussion is simply cowardice.

Yeah you right.

Agreed, but you can clearly see the extreme lag late into the downswing, no early release.

Here is another imperfect pic, a little after impact. Looks like he "lines it up" just fine despite the extereme lag.

I agree, GREAT line up.

I don't see the failure of logic you do. Brian's model found that extreme lag is a significant power drain. However, the model disagrees with observations: it predicts that the longest drivers will not have extreme lag, but we can see that isn't true. In scientific jargon, the model has been "falsified".

No.

ALL of the modeling is fine in regards to what we are saying and what we are NOT saying.

Here is a review and some more exact clarifications:

1. The golfer needs to apply a torque about the coupling point at an optimum time in the swing for their particular ability to apply that torque and their limb and shoulder size, and the club they are using.

2. If you apply this torque correctly, which includes where the left arm is replaced on the way down, the club will line up better, produce max speed, and improved and reduced angle of attack and preserve needed loft. This will produce more smash factor.

3. The golfer can NOT add to the power of the shot near and during impact. Therefore, allowing the left wrist to "do as it pleases" will probably assist the golfer in doing #1 & #2.

4. The golfer should start the hand path wide, with the benefit of reduced "arm tug" and keeping the club's overall center-of-mass inside the hands and producing delay in the outward movement of the club head before it is ideal.

Now, as for your max delay question, here is answer from one of our scientists:

For any given amount of available hand torque, there's an optimum "release" point at which the application of that torque should begin. For (the golfer mentioned pin the "midnight" video), who can generate 40 Newton-meters of torque, the optimum release point (with all other parameters of the swing equal) would be when his hands were at -100 degrees, which would give him a clubhead speed of 113.71 mph (up from 102).

If he could generate more hand torque, his optimum release point would move somewhat closer toward impact (otherwise, the club would end up outracing his hands). For example, if he could generate twice as much hand torque (80 N-m), his optimum release point would move to -60 degrees. His clubhead speed, however, would become unrealistically high (127.92 mph) for someone of his overall size and strength (5'9, 160), so I don't think 80 N-m would even be possible.

The real question, though, is how you define "maximum trigger delay". How can you even tell, from video, when a golfer is beginning to apply hand torque? I don't think you can. The only thing you can tell from video is when the golfer reaches a certain wrist cock angle (the angle between the left arm and the club. Let's say you define the "apparent release point" as the point when that wrist cock first drops below 90 degrees. In (the golfer reference in the midnight video) case, with 40 N-m of torque released at -55 degrees (his actual swing), his "apparent release point" occurred when his hands reached -4 degrees (just before their low point, but 51 degrees after his actual release point). If he had released his hand torque at the optimum -100 degrees, however, his "apparent release point" would have only moved to -30 degrees (the 7 o'clock position). Most observers would probably still conclude that he was using maximum trigger delay, even though he had actually begun his release 70 degrees sooner. The bottom line is that the "apparent release point" (from any video observation) will always be a lot later than the true release point (when the application of hand torque begins), and it could easily fool you into believing that "maximum trigger delay" (whatever that really means) had been employed. I'll bet those extra long hitters are applying hand torque a lot sooner than anyone realizes (themselves included, perhaps).

Hope that helps.

It sure helped me.

 

[TeeAce]

Can You please define those degrees? The scientific article without definitions of measurement really tells nothing.

So to what direction is that 100/60 degrees and how the tongues are counted? What part of them are from deceleration of inner circle or the change of moving direction and what are thought to be muscular action?

 

[spktho]

Can You please define those degrees? The scientific article without definitions of measurement really tells nothing.

So to what direction is that 100/60 degrees and how the tongues are counted? What part of them are from deceleration of inner circle or the change of moving direction and what are thought to be muscular action?

If I may. This is not from a published article. The way I understand it, Brian asked the scientist the question Jeffy asked and that is the scientist's brief synopsis. That is more than likely why what you are asking is omitted in that post.

 

[TeeAce]

If I may. This is not from a published article. The way I understand it, Brian asked the scientist the question Jeffy asked and that is the scientist's brief synopsis. That is more than likely why what you are asking is omitted in that post.

Yes You may, so please do it. Degrees are nonsense without directions.

 

[dschultz6072]

I don't mean to advertise or anything, but I guarantee anyone here that doesn't know how to do this "release" can teach themselves how to do it within minutes if they bought themselves an Original Swingrite and figured out how to get it to click on a low number. I feel exactly how the big shots are claiming I should be feeling. It feels like from the top the only thing my body is doing is bracing itself for what feels like pulling the handle straight into my belly at the bottom. I have the feeling of recruiting my entire body and I can feel the force against the ground leveraging my swing. YOU HAVE TO RELEASE YOUR HANDS. YOU MOVE THE CLUBHEAD 6 FEET IN THE BLINK OF AN EYE IF YOU DO. This is why you work on tempo, so you can time your release.

I have increased my clubhead speed by 10 miles an hour and gained 30 yards on my tee shots. Really really. I have been reaching bunkers I was never able to hit the ball into before. Overnight. Really really. The pro I mentioned on the very first post on this thread took 10 swings with the tool, scoffed at the product, proceeded to get on Trackman and record 128mph swings (320 total with a range ball) and was hitting a draw for the first time in his life. No more hold off swing the handle crap. "The easiest clubhead speed I've ever produced in my life" In the matter of 15 minutes, we both got it.

 

[Brian Manzella]

There is no ONE MODEL we are using to come to our conclusions. Nor is there one scientist. There are several models and a few scientists.

The model referenced by the "midnight video" and the subsequent response to Jeffy by that scientist is just one of those models.

But, there MUST BE "torque about the coupling point" somewhere on the downswing. If you don't want to hit it like a powder--puffer.

This scientist is saying that for the 40nm of the 160 lb golfer mentioned in the MIDNIGHT VIDEO, the WHERE of that "torque about the coupling point" needed to be well before he did it.

Also, if you have greater force capabilities in your hands, like a massively strong Gary Woodland, you HAD TO RELEASE LATER to "line it up" and reach max speed. (There is you answer Jeffy)


BManz

 

[Brian Manzella]

Some more clarification on the Model used in the Midnight Video explanation from the scientist who developed it:

"When looking at a face-on view of a right-handed golfer, all angles in my model are measured counter-clockwise from a downward vertical position. So, 0 degrees is at 6 o'clock, +90 degrees is at 3 o'clock, -90 degrees is at 9 o'clock, -30 degrees is at 7 o'clock, etc. Also, when I refer to the angle of the hands (as in my previous e-mail), I mean the angle of a ray connecting the swing center to the pivot point of the hands (i.e., the coupling point). So, at 0 degrees, for example, the hands are at their lowest point and at -90 degrees, they're horizontally level with the swing center, on the non-target side of the golfer.

I happened to see the pictures that jeffy posted to your forum, showing the angle between the club and the left arm (when the club was horizontal) for various golfers. His criterion for maximum delay seemed to be about 108 degrees or less for that angle, with early release represented by 125 degrees or more. In case you're interested, that angle was about 100 degrees for (the golfer discussed in the Midnight video's) actual swing and it would be about 117.5 degrees for his optimized swing. I don't know how jeffy would classify (the golfer discussed in the Midnight video's) optimized swing, but it would still be faster than his actual swing, which would no doubt fall into jeffy's maximum delay category."

 

[spktho]

I understand him saying that 0* is when the hands are at their lowest point. Then a (-) degrees is that many degrees prior to low point.

Well what do you know, I got one right (Before the reply was moved)

 

[TeeAce]

Some more clarification on the Model used in the Midnight Video explanation from the scientist who developed it:

"When looking at a face-on view of a right-handed golfer, all angles in my model are measured counter-clockwise from a downward vertical position. So, 0 degrees is at 6 o'clock, +90 degrees is at 3 o'clock, -90 degrees is at 9 o'clock, -30 degrees is at 7 o'clock, etc. Also, when I refer to the angle of the hands (as in my previous e-mail), I mean the angle of a ray connecting the swing center to the pivot point of the hands (i.e., the coupling point). So, at 0 degrees, for example, the hands are at their lowest point and at -90 degrees, they're horizontally level with the swing center, on the non-target side of the golfer.

"

Thank You for Your answer Brian.
So to compare to our measurements it's called "position" in Our UI. That helps if I so some comparing between few players.

Can You please still clarify why to use that angle, when none of the forces are working with that direction instead gravity?

And how much You think measurement from that direction gives different results for the players with more upright swing or flat one?

I mean that I think the case is much more complicated than it seems from face on view. The visible angle from 2D face on view is depended of many other things and might be sometimes quite far from the truth. Try to find time still today to make some pictures for better explanation.

 

[leon]

First off, the last few videos are awesome! This is the kind of stuff I was hoping for when I joined this forum way back when - proper science by proper scientists, applied by people who REALLY know golf swing. Guys, you haven't disappointed!

I have to say that, as someone who makes a living from computer modelling, I am really excited to see it featuring here so prominently and disappointed, but not surprised, by the level of negative comment. Despite it being an incredibly mature technology, it seems that some still view it with a lot of skepticism and distrust. Bravo to Brian and Michael for showcasing its huge value in developing a fundamental understanding of complex physical phenomena.

One followup question that popped straight into my head is about rate of application of torque. Brian has kind of inferred that there is a rate consideration to be made in talking about a golfers "ability to apply" the available torque, and Mike Finney's "speed power" hands (or something to that effect, I couldn't find the exact post when I went back and looked). So what assumptions are made regarding rate of torque in the model on which these findings are based (instantaneous & constant torque, linear or sinusoidal increase, constant rate change or proportional to peak torque, etc?) and how do these assumptions compare to what is physically possible? I'm guessing that it is the ability to combine your personal peak torque, from pure strength, and rate of application, from muscle speed, that is really key to optimising your own personal impact conditions.

 

[jeffy]

Some more clarification on the Model used in the Midnight Video explanation from the scientist who developed it:

I happened to see the pictures that jeffy posted to your forum, showing the angle between the club and the left arm (when the club was horizontal) for various golfers. His criterion for maximum delay seemed to be about 108 degrees or less for that angle, with early release represented by 125 degrees or more. In case you're interested, that angle was about 100 degrees for (the golfer discussed in the Midnight video's) actual swing and it would be about 117.5 degrees for his optimized swing. I don't know how jeffy would classify (the golfer discussed in the Midnight video's) optimized swing, but it would still be faster than his actual swing, which would no doubt fall into jeffy's maximum delay category."

Very interesting. At 100* the Midnight Golfer had more lag angle than any tour player analyzed by KM other than Camilo. Sounds like he was overdoing it. At 117.5* he would not be an "early releaser", who range between 125* and 137*. The "extreme lag" range is 100* to 111*.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Not sure what you saying Jeff.

I saw the before and after sequences of the "MIDNIGHT GOLFER" and he released earlier, and line-up at impact better, than he did with his handle-dragging swing.

Every question, every "point" you are bringing up, was brought up by us to the WHOLE TEAM of scientists.

"Lag" for the sake of looking a certain way on video, or coping a golfer with a different physiology than you, is useless.

Unless a golfer's previous useless was even worse.

Do you think one golf pro trainer is right and every scientist back as far as David Williams is wrong?

Just asking.

 

[jeffy]

Not sure what you saying Jeff.

I saw the before and after sequences of the "MIDNIGHT GOLFER" and he released earlier, and line-up at impact better, than he did with his handle-dragging swing.

Every question, every "point" you are bringing up, was brought up by us to the WHOLE TEAM of scientists.

"Lag" for the sake of looking a certain way on video, or coping a golfer with a different physiology than you, is useless.

Unless a golfer's previous useless was even worse.

Do you think one golf pro trainer is right and every scientist back as far as David Williams is wrong?

Just asking.

Here's what I'm saying: First, what the scientist said confirms my long-held belief: that many players hurt their distance by "forcing" a hands-ahead impact. Many of them had some TGM influence.

Second, the optimized swing is smack dab in the middle of what tour players do which also makes perfect sense: as a group, they should be pretty close to optimized.

Third, the optimized swing had significantly more lag than the "early releasers", which confirms my belief that it is entirely plausible that early releasers could benefit from some more lag.

 

[TeeAce]

What we have to remember is that flatter the shaft, more lag there seems to be watched on 2D screen from face on direction.

Players like Sergio Garcia seems to create lot of lag at tradition, but that's not increasing. He drops the ch so much behind him by pronation of left forearm, that it seems to increase. The same thing with many others and that's why I asked those angles. Further from the target line the ch is relative to the hands, more lag seems to player have. Thats because of camera lenses and 2D illusions in swing. The difference can be even 20 degrees or more between players that have the same amount one angle between their left arm and shaft.

 

[dbl]

Excellent point Tee. Death to 2D!