The Release w/Brian Manzella & Michael Jacobs
- Thread starter dschultz6072
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Have been trying few days understand Brian's "normal" and I feel there is still something I can't get.
I understand perfectly that force which is pulling inwards, but IMO it's totally depended of other normal, that is for opposite direction. As scientists say, there is no centrifugal force, only linear forces and centripetal force (Brian's normal)
I might be missing some posts from this mega thread, but can You Brian please clear it out a little bit.
As I see there is many forces at impact, but some are created before but still active, even not at muscular level. Do You mean that only active muscular force player uses at that point is inward pull. I think that there is, but it's totally depended of linear force where the club (head) is traveling before that force applies. So more You create force perpendicular to target line (by throwing the ch out) the same amount of pulling force effects to the butt end as dragging it in. If one of those two forces is bigger, there is no arc any more.
If we are talking about the role of the hands, I totally agree they don't produce any force across the shaft. But I think there is still forces acting as body rotates and pulls the club around it. If we talk about hands lateral move toward the target independently (separated from rotation force from the body) I even more agree that should be zero.
Jumping up or back to add force to the direction of normal adds the opposite force and that way can be use as accelerator of the club head, but IMO that has to happen when there is still some angles between the arm and shaft. If it's fully released, the increasing of centripetal force only moves that object away from its arc but doesn't add anything.
What I have seen in Our measurements with better players, there is still quite much force in the hands during and after impact. If there is no force, the object don't move. Is it active force or something that has changed passive at that moment I think it's still active but made by rotation of the body. My argument there is that in graphs can be seen, that the hand speed drops a little when wrist angle is releasing (MOI) and then hand speed drops a lot at impact because of the mass of the ball. But in good players swings it seems to increase again after hit, so there have to be some stored energy still left.
I think if measured those forces, the force lined to "normal" is much bigger than anything else, because the ch's natural moving direction at that point is much away from us as the center of gravity. But is it really something player can use in his swing, or is it something that is there by laws of physics anyway?
Please clarify if I'm totally lost about this.
TY
Tapio
I understand perfectly that force which is pulling inwards, but IMO it's totally depended of other normal, that is for opposite direction. As scientists say, there is no centrifugal force, only linear forces and centripetal force (Brian's normal)
I might be missing some posts from this mega thread, but can You Brian please clear it out a little bit.
As I see there is many forces at impact, but some are created before but still active, even not at muscular level. Do You mean that only active muscular force player uses at that point is inward pull. I think that there is, but it's totally depended of linear force where the club (head) is traveling before that force applies. So more You create force perpendicular to target line (by throwing the ch out) the same amount of pulling force effects to the butt end as dragging it in. If one of those two forces is bigger, there is no arc any more.
If we are talking about the role of the hands, I totally agree they don't produce any force across the shaft. But I think there is still forces acting as body rotates and pulls the club around it. If we talk about hands lateral move toward the target independently (separated from rotation force from the body) I even more agree that should be zero.
Jumping up or back to add force to the direction of normal adds the opposite force and that way can be use as accelerator of the club head, but IMO that has to happen when there is still some angles between the arm and shaft. If it's fully released, the increasing of centripetal force only moves that object away from its arc but doesn't add anything.
What I have seen in Our measurements with better players, there is still quite much force in the hands during and after impact. If there is no force, the object don't move. Is it active force or something that has changed passive at that moment I think it's still active but made by rotation of the body. My argument there is that in graphs can be seen, that the hand speed drops a little when wrist angle is releasing (MOI) and then hand speed drops a lot at impact because of the mass of the ball. But in good players swings it seems to increase again after hit, so there have to be some stored energy still left.
I think if measured those forces, the force lined to "normal" is much bigger than anything else, because the ch's natural moving direction at that point is much away from us as the center of gravity. But is it really something player can use in his swing, or is it something that is there by laws of physics anyway?
Please clarify if I'm totally lost about this.
TY
Tapio
Wouldn't shock me based on MJ's shirt if he has some true gold.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Hey tapio,
How many hub path papers have you studied?
How many hub path paper authors have you talked with extensively?
What is the hz of your 3d machine?
How many hub path papers have you studied?
How many hub path paper authors have you talked with extensively?
What is the hz of your 3d machine?
BertramSterling
New
I really respect what you guys are doing here. Sadly, I expect some people will now just deny the validity of any model, and so on and so on.
At the end of the day I don't have any proof that the model is 100% correct, but why would I NOT believe it to be?? These guys travel hundreds of miles and dedicate so much time to it, when I am sure it would be easier to just come up with a few gimmicks and write a book. As opposed to a load of web videos like the above, for no profit..
But hey ho, onward to page 200 of this epic thread and the inevitable denials...
At the end of the day I don't have any proof that the model is 100% correct, but why would I NOT believe it to be?? These guys travel hundreds of miles and dedicate so much time to it, when I am sure it would be easier to just come up with a few gimmicks and write a book. As opposed to a load of web videos like the above, for no profit..
But hey ho, onward to page 200 of this epic thread and the inevitable denials...
I was just asking for clarifying that because I couldn't understand everything.
For example I have been saying the butt goes in.
But I'm still asking the same questions and maybe You can even tell how that research has been made and what Yours hub path papers are telling. I guess they are 3D, but to what relation that force is measured.
I have talked with maybe 5 scientist about that physics and just telling what they told me about forces. I can't argue with them about that.
I got open mind and just want to understand Your thoughts
Re the page 148 video, so Ross Fisher and the others by holding on MIGHT have 11 mph less if they held on? Kind makes you wonder abut the "flicky" pro's who are maxing out just to keep up. On the early pictures, would Gainey really have 11 more? For Gainey, I'm not sure his release and everything could be transformed into a "line it up" impact. Still I suspect the take away message is that there are choices. No "one way" impact look.
jeffy
Banned
Thanks, Brian and Mike! I owe YOU guys another dinner for putting together another video for me at midnight. I loved that Italian place in Manorville and can't wait to go back.
OK, if I understood the "punch line": a player that was "trying" to get to a hands-ahead impact had a 102mph swingspeed with a three-wood and, according to the model, if he stopped trying to do that, he'd get 11 more mph.
That doesn't necessarily surprise me, although that IS quite a jump. I have seen plenty of players, you two included, that struck me as having lower clubhead speed than their potential because of trying to "force" a hands-ahead impact.
Since you brought it up, let me ask a question regarding clubhead speed. Here we have a bunch of players that have extreme lag and are among the leaders in clubhead speed on tour, and we have no reason to believe that they are trying to "force" a hands-ahead impact in a speed robbing fashion. So what are they doing differently than you two, or the guy your scientist measured?
JB Holmes, First, 125mph:
Gary Woodland, Third, 122mph:
Dustin Johnson, Fifth, 121mph:
Jerry Kelly, who releases early, is 178th in clubhead speed at 106.5 mph. Rocco Mediate, who I know you guys like, is 182st at 106 mph. And there is another guy (who keeps disappearing from here) with an early release that lines up the way you like who is dead last at 185th with 103.5mph.
Same thing is true in Europe, where Quiros is the driving distance leader at 313 yards, and he has extreme lag:
Some top Europeans who release the lag early are 20 yards behind him:
Lee Westwood, 294 yards:
Ross Fisher, 293 yards:
Louis Oosthuizen, 291 yards:
Yeah, I know these lag angles aren't measured in 3D and the camera angles aren't perfect, but doesn't this information suggest some sort of disconnect in your model? If JB starts releasing like Jerry Kelly, his clubhead speed is going to 136mph from his current 125? If Alvaro starts releasing like Oosthuizen, he's going to pick up 25 yards? I don't think so. Why isn't Westwood already outdriving Alvaro? Lee's a big, strong guy. I think there must be a "good" way to get extreme lag and added distance, because that is what the biggest hitters are doing! That's what I'm trying to find out. So should you guys!
OK, if I understood the "punch line": a player that was "trying" to get to a hands-ahead impact had a 102mph swingspeed with a three-wood and, according to the model, if he stopped trying to do that, he'd get 11 more mph.
That doesn't necessarily surprise me, although that IS quite a jump. I have seen plenty of players, you two included, that struck me as having lower clubhead speed than their potential because of trying to "force" a hands-ahead impact.
Since you brought it up, let me ask a question regarding clubhead speed. Here we have a bunch of players that have extreme lag and are among the leaders in clubhead speed on tour, and we have no reason to believe that they are trying to "force" a hands-ahead impact in a speed robbing fashion. So what are they doing differently than you two, or the guy your scientist measured?
JB Holmes, First, 125mph:
Gary Woodland, Third, 122mph:
Dustin Johnson, Fifth, 121mph:
Jerry Kelly, who releases early, is 178th in clubhead speed at 106.5 mph. Rocco Mediate, who I know you guys like, is 182st at 106 mph. And there is another guy (who keeps disappearing from here) with an early release that lines up the way you like who is dead last at 185th with 103.5mph.
Same thing is true in Europe, where Quiros is the driving distance leader at 313 yards, and he has extreme lag:
Some top Europeans who release the lag early are 20 yards behind him:
Lee Westwood, 294 yards:
Ross Fisher, 293 yards:
Louis Oosthuizen, 291 yards:
Yeah, I know these lag angles aren't measured in 3D and the camera angles aren't perfect, but doesn't this information suggest some sort of disconnect in your model? If JB starts releasing like Jerry Kelly, his clubhead speed is going to 136mph from his current 125? If Alvaro starts releasing like Oosthuizen, he's going to pick up 25 yards? I don't think so. Why isn't Westwood already outdriving Alvaro? Lee's a big, strong guy. I think there must be a "good" way to get extreme lag and added distance, because that is what the biggest hitters are doing! That's what I'm trying to find out. So should you guys!
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Jeffy I think it's question of direction here. And the direction You can't see from 2D pictures without looking some body positions.
Look at Quiros left shoulder. It has been pulled away from the ball, up and left and the hands will follow... up and left.
When that move is done when there is still lever to release, it will add the club head speed as Brian is telling for us. But the first thing to realize is that hands and ch are moving totally to different direction in 3D world, even they seem to move toward the target in 2D image. You can't see the change of depth in 2D and that has been confusing for many people for years.
Quite much all photos where You mentioned shorter shots, are also straight or even closed from their shoulder line. There is no way they could drag in and they have to release their hands more toward the target. I use to say they are rotating around the horizontal axis when Quiros, Hogan, Snead and many others rotated more around the vertical axis.
Brian: one more question. Is it possible that "normal" could be toward the left shoulder and to toward the hub?
Look at Quiros left shoulder. It has been pulled away from the ball, up and left and the hands will follow... up and left.
When that move is done when there is still lever to release, it will add the club head speed as Brian is telling for us. But the first thing to realize is that hands and ch are moving totally to different direction in 3D world, even they seem to move toward the target in 2D image. You can't see the change of depth in 2D and that has been confusing for many people for years.
Quite much all photos where You mentioned shorter shots, are also straight or even closed from their shoulder line. There is no way they could drag in and they have to release their hands more toward the target. I use to say they are rotating around the horizontal axis when Quiros, Hogan, Snead and many others rotated more around the vertical axis.
Brian: one more question. Is it possible that "normal" could be toward the left shoulder and to toward the hub?
Thanks, Brian and Mike! I owe YOU guys another dinner for putting together another video for me at midnight. I loved that Italian place in Manorville and can't wait to go back.
OK, if I understood the "punch line": a player that was "trying" to get to a hands-ahead impact had a 102mph swingspeed with a three-wood and, according to the model, if he stopped trying to do that, he'd get 11 more mph.
That doesn't necessarily surprise me, although that IS quite a jump. I have seen plenty of players, you two included, that struck me as having lower clubhead speed than their potential because of trying to "force" a hands-ahead impact.
Since you brought it up, let me ask a question regarding clubhead speed. Here we have a bunch of players that have extreme lag and are among the leaders in clubhead speed on tour, and we have no reason to believe that they are trying to "force" a hands-ahead impact in a speed robbing fashion. So what are they doing differently than you two, or the guy your scientist measured?
JB Holmes, First, 125mph:
Gary Woodland, Third, 122mph:
Dustin Johnson, Fifth, 121mph:
Jerry Kelly, who releases early, is 178th in clubhead speed at 106.5 mph. Rocco Mediate, who I know you guys like, is 182st at 106 mph. And there is another guy (who keeps disappearing from here) with an early release that lines up the way you like who is dead last at 185th with 103.5mph.
Same thing is true in Europe, where Quiros is the driving distance leader at 313 yards, and he has extreme lag:
Some top Europeans who release the lag early are 20 yards behind him:
Lee Westwood, 294 yards:
Ross Fisher, 293 yards:
Louis Oosthuizen, 291 yards:
Yeah, I know these lag angles aren't measured in 3D and the camera angles aren't perfect, but doesn't this information suggest some sort of disconnect in your model? If JB starts releasing like Jerry Kelly, his clubhead speed is going to 136mph from his current 125? If Alvaro starts releasing like Oosthuizen, he's going to pick up 25 yards? I don't think so. Why isn't Westwood already outdriving Alvaro? Lee's a big, strong guy. I think there must be a "good" way to get extreme lag and added distance, because that is what the biggest hitters are doing! That's what I'm trying to find out. So should you guys!
Your never going to get your answer, ever. First comparing Brian to say Sandlowski (my comparison not yours) is like saying why can't I be like M. Jordan and dominate the hard court, what's the reason I got 2 legs and arms I should be able to do it, why not?
Your answer is so obvious but you fail to grasp it. Lee W. isn't Sandlowski or Quiros. You may get some gains but there are unseen differences which I already mentioned to you. Good luck on your quest.
johnnymarlboro
New
Come on man, every single picture is from a different angle, and the one of Woodland he's hitting an iron out of a bunker. There's no way you can make any valid comparisons there. Apples to marbles. Also comparing Westwood to Quiros athletically seems a pretty unfair comparison. You put them guys in a foot race I know where my money is going. Now a hotdog eating contest, I'd reconsider.
drewyallop
New
Jeffy,
All other things being equal, does it make sense that applying the tangential force over a greater distance will results in higher club head speed?
Drew
All other things being equal, does it make sense that applying the tangential force over a greater distance will results in higher club head speed?
Drew
Brian Manzella
Administrator
All those questions can be answered scientifically, but today is not the day.
You need the high hertz 3d on all of them.
The "line it up" guys maybe doing what they can to keep up is a very good observational theory.
I am just asking because I want to know where you are coming from.
This Thread is not publish time for the Project. Those answers will be in whatever we publish.
HAve you ever read ANY scientific paper on the subject?
How many papers have them published on the subject. We will read and study theirs as well.
I don't think you get it Jeff.
THE RESEARCH HAS BEEN DONE.
Has you boy read 'em all and then went and talked to them all?
Look man, lag the heck out of it and call me in the morning.
Perfect ANTI-SUMMIT question.
Yup.
The Lee Westwood to Quiros is like comparing Billy Kilmer to Cam Newton.
SEEMS AS IF.....it SEEEMS AS IF he has a valid point. IT SEEMED AS IF Homer Kelley had a valid point.
NEXT!
System is running with 170 fps ao that's the frequency for measurements. We also tried higher, but results were the same. With 120 the start to change and it's not enough. We also got Flight scope integrated to our system to see more about the club head.
I have maybe seen only something like 500 players data
Those scientist has never published anything on the subject. They are working with forces
I hope I answered Your questions.
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
Brian and Michael, very nice video. It pains me to see you in that Islanders shirt. There will be a Pens jersey in the mail for Christmas.
Dariusz J.
New member
Are you serious now ? If I know I am right I would like to receive criticism from everywhere because I can defend against it easily and, consequently, strengthen my position. Escaping from discussion is simply cowardice.
Exactly. I'd say even it should to become true gold.
Cheers
I didn't look at Jeffy's pic comparisons as if he was matching one from the top to one from the bottom. He showed several that release the way this thread has been talking about and several others where the release is "delayed" (even though the pics are not controlled and standardized, we can see those players in action elsewhere). I think he has made a point there.
Then, today, he went into something else: arguing the rationale behind 2 trends: one group with delayed lag with higher swing speed vs another without delayed lag with lower swing speed.
EVEN IF the numbers are factual, I find it logic challenged. Here is why. Jeffy made a very good point somewhere earlier in the thread that no math model is perfect, meaning to me, there are individual human elements that a math model cannot adequately capture. So at best, we hope a math model truly mirrors and reflects an individual golfer in action. Thus, when we compare player A and player B, we are comparing model A to model B. In Jeffy's case, he was comparing A1, A2, A3 with B1, B2, B3. Or, perhaps, the comparison was more like A1, B4, D6 vs S4, H2 and M1. Comparing apples and oranges won't be so bad in that regard.
The way to compare, if possible at all, is to have player A swing with regular release and then the same player with delayed release, assuming he is capable of optimizing both.
why am i posting on a golf site?
Then, today, he went into something else: arguing the rationale behind 2 trends: one group with delayed lag with higher swing speed vs another without delayed lag with lower swing speed.
EVEN IF the numbers are factual, I find it logic challenged. Here is why. Jeffy made a very good point somewhere earlier in the thread that no math model is perfect, meaning to me, there are individual human elements that a math model cannot adequately capture. So at best, we hope a math model truly mirrors and reflects an individual golfer in action. Thus, when we compare player A and player B, we are comparing model A to model B. In Jeffy's case, he was comparing A1, A2, A3 with B1, B2, B3. Or, perhaps, the comparison was more like A1, B4, D6 vs S4, H2 and M1. Comparing apples and oranges won't be so bad in that regard.
The way to compare, if possible at all, is to have player A swing with regular release and then the same player with delayed release, assuming he is capable of optimizing both.
why am i posting on a golf site?
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