The Release w/Brian Manzella & Michael Jacobs
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Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
This is some thread.
Hijacked by folks with horses in the race....
Anyhoo,
Here is a picture of two golfers at different times in their playing careers.
The guy on the left was taught by me, right out of tournament golf. The other has been taught out of this swing for the past 10 years.
OBVIOUSLY, you want to do what Tiger2000 was doing.
Sorry Mike.
Wow...this is a prime example. Nice legs, Mike.
mgranato
New
Tried this move "away from the target" last night at the range, and for the first time in a long time I got the toe of my back foot dirty in the finish - what a great feeling!
The wedge length swing was a little iffy as was the driver swing, but the mid irons were butta. Gonna see how it does today with a little something something on the game.
The wedge length swing was a little iffy as was the driver swing, but the mid irons were butta. Gonna see how it does today with a little something something on the game.
Todd Dugan
New
Here's the million dollar question........How do you get full extention of both arms after impact, as virtually all great ball-strikers do, while ALSO causing the hand arc to bottom out farther back, say, in-line with sternum?
Here's the answer.........First, straighten both arms through the impact zone. In a swing of any real force, this is virtually automatic.
BUT, move the club through the impact zone with more body rotation and less left arm swing from its joint.
If your arms are straightening, there's just no other way to do it, except to maybe elevate your sternum through the zone. And that's not what the greats are doing. Save for the current Tiger swing.
Here's the answer.........First, straighten both arms through the impact zone. In a swing of any real force, this is virtually automatic.
BUT, move the club through the impact zone with more body rotation and less left arm swing from its joint.
If your arms are straightening, there's just no other way to do it, except to maybe elevate your sternum through the zone. And that's not what the greats are doing. Save for the current Tiger swing.
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Brian Manzella
Administrator
That just about says it all!!!!
In Mike Jacobs' video, he says not to consciously try to pull the club handle away from the target to start the downswing even though that is what the club handle actually does. Mike says to try to "close the gap" between the clubhead and the ball as quickly as possible from the top. What "feel" is there for making the coupling point go up and in into and past impact? Are there any other "feels" that I should I try for in order to use these concepts in my swing? Thanks.
Jwat
New
I am experiencing the exact same thing. The mid irons are perfect, but the short irons and driver are not very good at all.
With the Driver I am hitting a very high ball. The short irons I really have to close the gap of the clubhead and ball to make solid contact.
Michael Jacobs
Super Moderator
There are some very good questions in this thread that deserve a good answer for those that want to learn from our findings and then there are some awkward questions and comments that are eagotistical and filling an agenda at the expense of those who really want to learn. The book literalists hang on to any glimmer of hope that they can salvage, and the biomechanics folks think they are the future of golf instruction. A little respect for Brian and myself would be appreciated as well, there have been some huge investments in the PROJECT 1.68 and lots of time and resources go into keeping these websites going for you the golfer to participate in at your leisure. Is hate emails and comments to my email address necessary????
I am going to make a 3rd part to the Explosive Golf Show covering this topic and would like to answer the questions for those that are curious and want to learn. So post up a question labeled for the Show Part 3 and I will answer them in detail.
One thing I do want to point out is this:
a quick observation of the responses reveals that some are missing the crux of the message. The golfer has very little time from the start down to impact and into finish, there is a huge gap to cover from the club head to ball and a much smaller gap for the body parts. THE CRUX IS THE ACCELERATION RATE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE HANDS AND THE HEAD OF THE CLUB. The poorly timed golfer is moving the hands and club head at a similar rate -- just like the disastrous Book Literalist idea of RHYTHM and striving to keep the club in line with the left arm. The concept of left arm and club moving at the SAME rate is the DETRIMENT!! The club head acceleration RATE should be in the fore front of the golfer's mind and not about some of these ideas I am reading form the gallery
The Book literalist idea of RHYTHM which is an 'Essential' in their world is a mess.
Lag Pressure Ideology - A WELL TIMED HIGH END PLAYER IS REPORTING NO FORCE ACROSS THE CLUB in the final stages of the downswing. Hundreds of thousands of dollars in equipment was used by the USGA and Universities to measure all forces and torques on the club, and FORCE ACROSS THE CLUB was ABSENT in the final stages as all the force was "NORMAL" or towards the golfer. Even the high end players with excessive forward lean of the club into impact REPORTED NO FORCES ACROSS THE SHAFT - THIS CLEARLY INDICATES THE HANDS ARE TRAVELING UP AND IN DURING THOSE STAGES.
If lag pressure was really present in the world class golfer there would be completely different reports and forces on the club and would indicate that the hands are traveling down and out. Lag Pressure as portrayed as a supposed 'Imperative' is a detriment. I am not throwing a book under the bus I am simply reporting, a book that was easily updateable to match new ideas has been ruined by those who call it infallible. Those are the people who do a disservice to the author, not people like myself who called for new updates. This is why we have left that world and no longer participate in those discussions and have removed those wrappers from our instruction.
WIth that said, back to the program:
There are 2 distinct bending modes of the shaft that are of interest. A 'Cantilevered Mode' of the shaft and 'Pin Supported' mode of the shaft. These bending modes REVEAL ALL... I will hop into these topics in the near future as I continue to report on the 'THE PROJECT'
Stay tuned for Part 3 of the Explosive Golf Show on this subject and please go ahead with some nicely thought out questions to be answered
I am going to make a 3rd part to the Explosive Golf Show covering this topic and would like to answer the questions for those that are curious and want to learn. So post up a question labeled for the Show Part 3 and I will answer them in detail.
One thing I do want to point out is this:
a quick observation of the responses reveals that some are missing the crux of the message. The golfer has very little time from the start down to impact and into finish, there is a huge gap to cover from the club head to ball and a much smaller gap for the body parts. THE CRUX IS THE ACCELERATION RATE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE HANDS AND THE HEAD OF THE CLUB. The poorly timed golfer is moving the hands and club head at a similar rate -- just like the disastrous Book Literalist idea of RHYTHM and striving to keep the club in line with the left arm. The concept of left arm and club moving at the SAME rate is the DETRIMENT!! The club head acceleration RATE should be in the fore front of the golfer's mind and not about some of these ideas I am reading form the gallery
The Book literalist idea of RHYTHM which is an 'Essential' in their world is a mess.
Lag Pressure Ideology - A WELL TIMED HIGH END PLAYER IS REPORTING NO FORCE ACROSS THE CLUB in the final stages of the downswing. Hundreds of thousands of dollars in equipment was used by the USGA and Universities to measure all forces and torques on the club, and FORCE ACROSS THE CLUB was ABSENT in the final stages as all the force was "NORMAL" or towards the golfer. Even the high end players with excessive forward lean of the club into impact REPORTED NO FORCES ACROSS THE SHAFT - THIS CLEARLY INDICATES THE HANDS ARE TRAVELING UP AND IN DURING THOSE STAGES.
If lag pressure was really present in the world class golfer there would be completely different reports and forces on the club and would indicate that the hands are traveling down and out. Lag Pressure as portrayed as a supposed 'Imperative' is a detriment. I am not throwing a book under the bus I am simply reporting, a book that was easily updateable to match new ideas has been ruined by those who call it infallible. Those are the people who do a disservice to the author, not people like myself who called for new updates. This is why we have left that world and no longer participate in those discussions and have removed those wrappers from our instruction.
WIth that said, back to the program:
There are 2 distinct bending modes of the shaft that are of interest. A 'Cantilevered Mode' of the shaft and 'Pin Supported' mode of the shaft. These bending modes REVEAL ALL... I will hop into these topics in the near future as I continue to report on the 'THE PROJECT'
Stay tuned for Part 3 of the Explosive Golf Show on this subject and please go ahead with some nicely thought out questions to be answered
Olof Karlson
New
Would one of the two releases you mention in the video be better for a really, really good golfer. You say that the release without much shaft lean is better than the Garcia-release for the average golfer. But would the Garcia-release be better for a really good player, and then, if someone is aiming to be a really good player, should that someone learn the Garcia-type release from the beginning?
EDIT: This is a question for show #3.
EDIT: This is a question for show #3.
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No force against the shaft at impact? I have been working for the last 3 months on moving from NHA to SD. In SD, Brian says that unless you apply force against the shaft into impact you are only getting about 85% of the available power. (I think that I am correct on the numbers.)
Now I don't have the new release ingrained yet, but I have played once and hit a few balls with my understanding of the release based on MJ's videos and this thread. I have focused on swinging my hands left from hand low point and getting my club lined up--which feels flippy. With these new swing thoughts, I hit the ball as far as I ever have and straighter. Here is my question: Given what MJ says in his last post, can we now disregard the view that you get only 85% of available power if you just swing the club? Should we focus on swinging to line-up?
A NHA question: How does the "Carry" and "Shaking the Sugar" blend in with this release?
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show part 3 question
Hey Mike, I was wondering if you could tell us a little about your game. From the picture Brian posted and your comment about hitting down 14 degrees on trackman, it seems like your swing had the opposite type of release that you are talking about here. How did you fix it to line up the club? What type of ballflight would an iron shot from your old swing have compared to one from your swing today?
Hey Mike, I was wondering if you could tell us a little about your game. From the picture Brian posted and your comment about hitting down 14 degrees on trackman, it seems like your swing had the opposite type of release that you are talking about here. How did you fix it to line up the club? What type of ballflight would an iron shot from your old swing have compared to one from your swing today?
wow
I just had the best range session in a long time (maybe ever) with the only swing thought being to bottom out my hands in the downswing back by my right thigh and continue the hands from that point up and in. One of the nice bonus features was for some reason it created a nice balanced finish.
I didn't want to stop hitting balls but forced myself to leave before it stopped working. Got a tourn. tomorrow and am hoping it still will work.
I just had the best range session in a long time (maybe ever) with the only swing thought being to bottom out my hands in the downswing back by my right thigh and continue the hands from that point up and in. One of the nice bonus features was for some reason it created a nice balanced finish.
I didn't want to stop hitting balls but forced myself to leave before it stopped working. Got a tourn. tomorrow and am hoping it still will work.
Michael Jacobs
Super Moderator
Important question!
Here are the stats:
Force Across the Shaft - Clinically known as TANGENTIAL FORCE:
18 Handicap - {obviously as a 18 handicap, not a consistent striker at all}
7.8 % of total tangential force still present at impact
13 Handicap - {obviously as a 13 handicap, not a consistent striker}
3.8 % of total tangential force still present at contact
5 Handicap - {obviously a good scorer and gets the ball around the golf course well}
6.7% of total tangential force still present at contact
Professional Player
Obviously a consistent player if they are a professional player who has sustained a career at golf
0% of total Tangential Force present at impact
I have plenty more data and will put out a lot of it at October GTE..
Bottom Line folks - The more force across the shaft at ball contact the worse your consistency of strike will be. The 5 handicap showed tangential force greater than expected at impact, a straight ball was the elusive part of his game
Michael Jacobs
Super Moderator
Great question, I will cover that.. I was hitting 14 degrees down with a wedge lol....
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
Hey Michael, i deleted your PM by accident, can you send me your # again? Thanks
1. Does "stay wide" mean moving the club handle or coupling point away from the target at the start of the downswing?
2. Does "line it up" mean the same thing as "close the gap between the clubhead and the ball" from the top of the backswing?
Michael Jacobs
Super Moderator
Nice post Bigwill, here is a real - world example to help your understanding:
Everything is of course subject dependent, the subject might not apply much force to begin with so a percentage of what remains is relative to the overall amount of force applied. Let's take that 5 handicap I reported the data on, he had 6.7% of the force across still present at impact. The actual measurement at that impact for that 5 handicap in a real world example would be equivalent to that golfer applying the force require to move a bag of 18 GOLF BALLS. So, picture 18 golf balls in a sac... and move it across a table top... that is what this 5 handicap reports. Hope that helps
JEREMY5577
New
Noticed that too. Much more balanced finish with no recoil.
Todd Dugan
New
Notice the super-straight left arm at the top.
Here's a couple legit questions (which will probably be ignored)........
How are you supposed to move the handle farther from your left shoulder from the top when your left arm is already straight?
And, how are you supposed to move the handle up and in sooner with the left arm straight?
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