Virtuoso
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Shoulder steepness on backswing looks the same; dive looks the same, and yet....
The height on the shot is created by how and when the handle is rotated at the bottom.
TIGER
- Thread starter Ray J
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Shoulder steepness on backswing looks the same; dive looks the same, and yet....
The height on the shot is created by how and when the handle is rotated at the bottom.
Wulsy, really?
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Closed shoulders at impact didn't work out too bad for Tiger in 2000. The difference was his hand path on the backswing and downswing was much steeper then.
Virt, your lines represent closed shoulders, no? In the comparisons between TW and RM at impact the height difference between the l and r shoulder is small, whereas the alignment difference is more significant. I'd argue that the height difference has more to do with the alignment difference than the other way round.
Virtuoso
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Agree somewhat (as stated, he has always been steep). Hand path on backswing was way different, but downswing hand path is now deeper because of shoulder position:
He had more open shoulders with Haney and didn't like it - called it "wipey". He wants to be closed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MLingaSNuc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MLingaSNuc
I laughed today when I saw on a dusty shelf of mine a product called "Greg Norman's Secret" which was a plastic wrist guard which bent the right wrist back and prevented any alpha. While alpha may be necessary and good, it was not always thought so, at least in some quarters!
alpha is OK after the ball separates from the face. Hogan and Woods never used it before then.
Virtuoso
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I think you have a misunderstanding of the forces and torques. Alpha is in-plane torque and every great golfer has a ton of it before impact. A ton.
Virtuoso
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yeah, let's not get open and wipey like these chops:
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I see the same steep shoulders at impact in that video compared to the pics Virt posted. He must of done something different then to get better results then now. His hand path looks different through impact and after more in and around.
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IMHO, there's nothing wrong with having a steep shoulder turn per se...in fact it's better because you can get the clubhead travelling more down the line without going handsy or handle dragging and therefore you still use the pivot. This is exactly what or why extension (left side) is for, as a matter of fact.
What makes steep shoulder turn a "clue" that there's something wrong, and "needing" steep shoulder turn (aka compensation), is if there's no room, because steeper turn lessens the room even more. No room=you need to get the left shoulder higher=left shoulder farther from the ball to be exact=radius is too long for the ball=hence you got to get left shoulder farther. Another quick fix is get farther from the ball. But many won't do this because they think it will lessen the angle (accum 3 angle), which is false because merely getting hands closer to your body and lowering it is just faking the angle. The real answer is in the grip.
What makes steep shoulder turn a "clue" that there's something wrong, and "needing" steep shoulder turn (aka compensation), is if there's no room, because steeper turn lessens the room even more. No room=you need to get the left shoulder higher=left shoulder farther from the ball to be exact=radius is too long for the ball=hence you got to get left shoulder farther. Another quick fix is get farther from the ball. But many won't do this because they think it will lessen the angle (accum 3 angle), which is false because merely getting hands closer to your body and lowering it is just faking the angle. The real answer is in the grip.
I tend to agree with Wulsy about the alignment vs. the steepness of the shoulders. Tiger is for sure not open with his shoulders in that video at impact but his hand path looks different to me...but again it's a 2d video with all kinds of different camera angles. Whatever the issue or issues Tiger needs to put together a decent tourney to get some confidence going.
I think you can plow the club in the ground regardless if you drop or not you need to yank it out some way I think Tiger always dropped down and used the ground maybe more then some I think if you can bend your hand path more in and up that will take care of the no room issue. I think Tiger's hand path has changed.... and not for the better!
I laughed today when I saw on a dusty shelf of mine a product called "Greg Norman's Secret" which was a plastic wrist guard which bent the right wrist back and prevented any alpha. While alpha may be necessary and good, it was not always thought so, at least in some quarters!
Prevent any Alpha? How? Alpha is the uncocking of the club/left wrist, right? Yeah, sort of.
But IMO the Greg Norman secret is more to keep the accum 3 angle intact thru impact. Works only if your right hand is more on top of the shaft. Great example IMO is Hogan.
Exactly
Probably a misunderstanding of alpha torque, but the post I replied to seemed to be saying alpha is unbending the right wrist through impact and why would you do that instead of freezing the right wrist impact bend and just uncocking the left wrist. PP #3 is for sensing lag pressure, not pushing against in a cf swing.
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