Vertical Hand Path

[Erik_K]

Sorry guys, I was not able to get on till now. My references to a vertical hand path are meant in terms of being Less out..

In the tumble thread and any time I am speaking in terms of hand path it is in the down the line view while the cameras sits dead behind the hands, parallel to the target line and exactly hand high. I never speak in teams of vertical hand path from face on.

If you want facts just dot the hand paths, from the down the line view, of many of the best ball strikers then dot the lines of a bad ball striker. Tell me which is more vertical.

Does this have to do with the "hands going out to the ball?" I'd say the better players don't do this (hands to ball). In that sense, there seems to be more of a drop that is perhaps more "vertical" compared to people like me (who suck).

 

[spktho]

I'd love to learn how hands and handpath can help reduce hip thrust.

But just glancing through your historical videos, you seem to have reduced the thrust a lot when you started standing taller at address. Here is a good example of you standing taller at address in March 2011: 3-11-11.AVI - YouTube

Looks like a ton less hip thrust to me!

Yep, standing taller was definitely one of the things I worked on, among a few other things, to help facilitate a better hand path as well as adding forces on the shaft. I didn't think nor do I currently think the hip thrust is a cause for the club orientations.

These changes have all resulted by applying the negative beta, positive beta, positive alpha, (more recently now negative alpha), and gamma forces like is shown in the graph Brian has posted in the past and the one I referenced in my recent thread.

 

[birly-shirly]

spktho - if you've put together those changes on your own, just working from the posts on here, then you are one smart guy.

actually, I'm pretty sure you're a smart guy even if you've been taking lessons,...

 

[spktho]

spktho - if you've put together those changes on your own, just working from the posts on here, then you are one smart guy.

actually, I'm pretty sure you're a smart guy even if you've been taking lessons,...

Thanks Birly, I used to be a pretty good athlete and am pretty kinesthetically inclined, but this golf thing has been a real challenge. I have had a couple lessons from Brian and advice from Michael Jacobs on his forum as well as all the information here.

I really need to get on a 3d like K-vest or the like for an even better understanding of what the actual movements should be and most importantly in what sequence.

 

[Lifter]

Lifter, I'm curious if you think that "hip thrust" is a cause or an effect?

How often do players "hip thrust" during their practice swings?

I personally think it's a little of both. Some teachers out there say they're not actually concerned about it and that the golfer shouldn't try to address it. I disagree with them since I'm a good example of someone who tackled the problem directly in his own swing.

I'm sure that indirect progress can be made in some cases, though. For example, standing taller at address seems to have helped spktho.

 

[Lifter]

(Relatively) Vertical vs. Horizontal

Is anyone else amazed by the sheer variety of downswing hand paths that predominate on tour? I sure am! I would put these players in one category:

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/W_vLH-cpL4g" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Gj7H4d4J954" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/gy5I_WlkFsA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/65vPZkdQwNg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

And these players in another category:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/91OaLf-1ou0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/84p4MnrRs8E" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/trISrddrHpI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/3aDiX-x0OVw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[drewyallop]

Maybe something has been overlooked that Kevin has emphasized many times - laying the club of at the start of the downswing. For me this takes a lot of guesswork out of the vertical/horizontal question. The hands get deep and the arms seem to move more naturally into a good position for the release. Plus you effortlessly create angles which as Michael Finney points out is important for power generation.

Without the lay off I get hand pop out, club stand up, too left path and a bunch of other nasty stuff.

Drew

 

[Lifter]

Maybe something has been overlooked that Kevin has emphasized many times - laying the club of at the start of the downswing. For me this takes a lot of guesswork out of the vertical/horizontal question. The hands get deep and the arms seem to move more naturally into a good position for the release. Plus you effortlessly create angles which as Michael Finney points out is important for power generation.

Without the lay off I get hand pop out, club stand up, too left path and a bunch of other nasty stuff.

Drew

I personally agree that laying it of a bit in transition can help a lot of people. Not certain about "vertical hand path," though......

 

[ekennedy]

I personally think it's a little of both. Some teachers out there say they're not actually concerned about it and that the golfer shouldn't try to address it. I disagree with them since I'm a good example of someone who tackled the problem directly in his own swing.

I'm sure that indirect progress can be made in some cases, though. For example, standing taller at address seems to have helped spktho.

In all good players, the body does what it has to do to make solid contact with the golf ball. I would imagine that there are very few common demoninators if you were to pick out a single body part and come to a conclusion.

Just watch how the club moves in transition and it will tell you everything you need to know about why a good player (especially one with an unorthodox swing) is successful and why his body is doing what its doing.

 

[Kevin Shields]

I personally agree that laying it of a bit in transition can help a lot of people. Not certain about "vertical hand path," though......

Try laying the club off with out the corresponding hand path and report back....just make sure there isn't anybody standing to the right of you.

What, in your experience, tells you making someone's hand path more vertical doesn't help?

 

[Lifter]

Try laying the club off with out the corresponding hand path and report back....just make sure there isn't anybody standing to the right of you.

What, in your experience, tells you making someone's hand path more vertical doesn't help?

Here's the action that I imagine is beneficial:

At the very start of the downswing, you move your hands slightly horizontally. That shallows the shaft into a good position.

Then, after that slight horizontal move, you want the hands to move down vertically. That steepens, or "tumbles" the shaft during the second half of the downswing.

What you don't want is immediate forward tumble right at the start of the downswing. I think that vertical movement of the hands promotes that steepening when you want to be flattening, or laying it off. To flatten that shaft early, the hands need to move horizontally, not vertically.

 

[Lifter]

I also think that trying to move the hands down vertically right from the start may encourage some golfers to keep their right elbow "up and behind" them for too long to the point where it gets stuck way behind the right hip at impact.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Here's the action that I imagine is beneficial:

At the very start of the downswing, you move your hands slightly horizontally. That shallows the shaft into a good position.

Then, after that slight horizontal move, you want the hands to move down vertically. That steepens, or "tumbles" the shaft during the second half of the downswing.

What you don't want is immediate forward tumble right at the start of the downswing. I think that vertical movement of the hands promotes that steepening when you want to be flattening, or laying it off. To flatten that shaft early, the hands need to move horizontally, not vertically.

That combo could work, no doubt

 

[Lifter]

That combo could work, no doubt

I heard a rumor that some obscure guy named Henny Bogan did it like that!

 

[spktho]

I disagree with them since I'm a good example of someone who tackled the problem directly in his own swing.

I'm sure that indirect progress can be made in some cases, though. For example, standing taller at address seems to have helped spktho.

So you think the only thing I did that helped stop a "hip thrust" was to stand taller at address? Nothing else I have been working on was responsible? In thinking about and feeling my "hip thrust", I think it has been ingrained from listening to and trying to get the pelvic turn all the way through to the finish from when I started golfing. So, it may actually be continuing due a lack of proper sequencing.

Here's the action that I imagine is beneficial:

At the very start of the downswing, you move your hands slightly horizontally. That shallows the shaft into a good position.

Then, after that slight horizontal move, you want the hands to move down vertically. That steepens, or "tumbles" the shaft during the second half of the downswing.

What you don't want is immediate forward tumble right at the start of the downswing. I think that vertical movement of the hands promotes that steepening when you want to be flattening, or laying it off. To flatten that shaft early, the hands need to move horizontally, not vertically.

I tried this. Didn't work at all. The problem is the hit response is very powerful for me and from my baseball days. If you're at the plate with a guy throwing 90, you better damn well not let your first move with the hands be down. So, for me, once the hands move out, there is no way I will get them to go down at some arbitrary point without timing issues. Which was very prevalent in my early swing.

 

[Lifter]

So you think the only thing I did that helped stop a "hip thrust" was to stand taller at address? Nothing else I have been working on was responsible? In thinking about and feeling my "hip thrust", I think it has been ingrained from listening to and trying to get the pelvic turn all the way through to the finish from when I started golfing. So, it may actually be continuing due a lack of proper sequencing.



I tried this. Didn't work at all. The problem is the hit response is very powerful for me and from my baseball days. If you're at the plate with a guy throwing 90, you better damn well not let your first move with the hands be down. So, for me, once the hands move out, there is no way I will get them to go down at some arbitrary point without timing issues. Which was very prevalent in my early swing.

Alright if you don't mind, I might actually pull out the V1 and look at some of your YouTube videos in more detail......

 

[Lindsey Newman]

Here's the action that I imagine is beneficial:

At the very start of the downswing, you move your hands slightly horizontally. That shallows the shaft into a good position.

Then, after that slight horizontal move, you want the hands to move down vertically. That steepens, or "tumbles" the shaft during the second half of the downswing.

What you don't want is immediate forward tumble right at the start of the downswing. I think that vertical movement of the hands promotes that steepening when you want to be flattening, or laying it off. To flatten that shaft early, the hands need to move horizontally, not vertically.

You better have some serious depth to your backswing

 

[Brian Manzella]

Three of my favorite swings:

 

[Lifter]

You better have some serious depth to your backswing

Great point!

 

[spktho]

Alright if you don't mind, I might actually pull out the V1 and look at some of your YouTube videos in more detail......

Knock yourself out if you want to waste your time on analyzing my swing. It definitely is not the optimum.