YIPS!
- Thread starter Damon Lucas
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Ouch man, that sounds pretty painful. Sorry to hear that one.
It would be really tough to explain in detail, here, as some things could get misinterpreted. One of the pressure points that is used is the left thumb (we number that as #3). In TGM #3 is in the right hand.
In simple terms we want pressure on both sides of the grip and on the top. This helps to keep the club balanced between the arms and control the shaft, clubhead and clubface. Place a golf ball between your hands, fingers extended and notice how little pressure it takes to maintain control of the ball. As soon as the oppossing forces get out of alignment the ball will fall. If you pull with either hand the ball will fall. Same would be true with the club. (PP#1 and #2).
I see the problem as the understanding between wrists and hands. The word "handsy" is usually a description of too much or wrong wrist movement. That being said, it is important to use a grip that will minimize the movement of the wrists but maximise the control over the club (PP placement). Paul Runyan came up with a good one.
PP#1 side of grip, PP#2 side of grip, PP#3 top of grip (but not exactly on the top, the grip will have the left thumb more at 10 o'clock...mine is at 11 o'clock). PP#3 Right Thumb at 1 to 2 o'clock.
By definition, there is a forward press, a takeaway and a hit through to finish.
The corresponding PP#'s for the action would be.... 1, 2, 3, 1, 2. Each of these PP's locks into one another creating a tremendous amount of control over the club. From this comes solid impact which gives perfect feedback vibrations that travel up the shaft into the hands and ultimately into the brain. Distance control can then be effectively learned and not guessed at.
Now, there is alot more to this understanding. Hands on would be best of course but there are detailed video downloads available if you wish, just send a PM.
Like I said pretty tough to deal with in words alone but there you have some of it anyway
spike
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Hi Damon,
The only access at this time to this research that I’ve had is through your excerpts posted. I have absolutely no problem with the research. I do respect what these guys are trying to do. I should probably apologize for my statement of….”should we be listening to them”. Pretty arrogant, I guess. Didn’t mean for that to happen. I just got hung up on the words “left shoulder pushes back” (therefore “the drink” comment) and thought it should have been better stated as “left shoulder pushes down”, that’s all. Would this be enough to put that one to rest?
The research is fantastic. The interpretation of it is when the ball game really starts. As we know through TGM there are many ways to do things. Perception plays a role in this, too. Some would say the hands are clamps, a-ok. I say the hands are beautiful, intricate and intimate mechanisms full of potential not fully investigated by the majority of instructors or students. Sad to say, it is probably due to the hard work and time involved when making this sort of investigation. And who is to say I’m right for that matter?
Concerning the “yips” it is my contention that the physical action should be fixed first before hitting the couch. I think there is more to it than just the anticipation of impact. Of course, I appreciate that these guys may have covered that in other writings. Anxiety is anxiety and more likely comes from doubt and fear. To begin to clear that up I believe it is important to build a sound technique that satisfies the requirements the mind may need to believe in it. From there, a training schedule of repetitions that builds control and feel. I suppose that my approach is to confront impact as something that can be understood. This doesn't mean that it is not a flowing rhythmic motion. It is just one that "involves impact" as a condition we pass through but thoroughly understood.
We are lucky that these guys are doing this research and who knows where it will lead us! I wish them all the best, Damon.
Thank you,
spike
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Damon Lucas
Super Moderator
Thanks Spike for those clarifications.
It's interesting how when we're understood the way we're intended to be, that we're on the same page as each other in a lot of respects.
I agree with your process,
I agree that there is research out there by a number of people, and we, as teachers and students need to understand where those researchers are coming from, so that we can understand the baseline and continue that line of thinking, go off on a tangent or in different directions, and of course, test, test, test!
Personally I like using the shoulders, and having soft hands. It sounds like you've got a great stroke, with strong support for your technique.As you say, it's up to the consumer to try different ideas and to go with what works.
Cheers,
Damon
It's interesting how when we're understood the way we're intended to be, that we're on the same page as each other in a lot of respects.
I agree with your process,
I agree that there is research out there by a number of people, and we, as teachers and students need to understand where those researchers are coming from, so that we can understand the baseline and continue that line of thinking, go off on a tangent or in different directions, and of course, test, test, test!
Personally I like using the shoulders, and having soft hands. It sounds like you've got a great stroke, with strong support for your technique.As you say, it's up to the consumer to try different ideas and to go with what works.
Cheers,
Damon
birdie_man
New
I do like that.
I like experimenting too BTW.....but something's gotta work BETTER if I'm gonna change to it that's for damn sure.
I am the poster child for chipping yips. For 10 yrs now. skull pitch and runs all day long. I just deal. They come and go, but once it happens in a round it's there for the rest of it.
I know I would be back in the mid 70's if I ever "cured" this, but have given up trying. I can practice all day without a problem. Get on the course and bam. It effects the rest of the game. You are so afraid to hit chips you put pressure on your iron game.
I know I would be back in the mid 70's if I ever "cured" this, but have given up trying. I can practice all day without a problem. Get on the course and bam. It effects the rest of the game. You are so afraid to hit chips you put pressure on your iron game.
Being late may not be in the "better late than..." class in this case. Sorry about that. I was in Phoenix helping some people get rid of the yips. Funny how that works. Probably should have really read through this thing more than once, but there are so many comments that it's out of reach. I am struck by the fact that Damon and otherss called attention to Geoff's article, but left out entirely the part that he had included from my studies concerning anxiety. That's OK with me, really, but someone my want to consider that anxiety is the only universal actor among everything mentioned in this thread. All the others, mechanical isuues, who has the best apporach to the putting stroke, etc., are exceptions to the universal (basic) rule.
A number of posters have alluded to anxiety, I suspect without even noticing it, or at least wirthout acknowledging it. They called it by another name, but anxiety it is, nonethless. I have never met a golfer with yips that knew about the anxiety issues, nor have I ever met a golfer with the yips who was willing to commit to what is required to manage anxiety that did not "beat" them. May take awhile, because they can indeed become habitual if they have been around awhile and that means that you need to comprehend how the non-discriminatory human system works. Physical issues can be related, but in my experience, even folks with physical diasabilities can overcoem the yips when they understand how to manage anxiety issues. We are not talking neurotic forms of anxiety, but an over-extended version of the norm.
Bottom line. I will challenge anyone here or any researcher anywhere to show that anxiety is NOT the chief culprit. There may be others, but they will all have to deal with the anxiety issue no matter what kind of isuue (mechanical or otherwise) or how long present, since anxiety is the ONLY CONSTANT in the bunch. Everyone has it. And that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Perfect Impact
New
which has its root cause in indecision. Anxious because their mind is not made up. Anxious because they haven't thought through and settled in their mind what it takes. Of course it is anxiety, but that is an effect of the REAL cause.
Not that nerves won't come into play, but they are controlled when the decision process is allowed to do its thing.
JUST DO IT. Trust. Which is a product of knowing your decision process works better than anything else--no decisions need be made during the act.
Not that nerves won't come into play, but they are controlled when the decision process is allowed to do its thing.
JUST DO IT. Trust. Which is a product of knowing your decision process works better than anything else--no decisions need be made during the act.
Quite right. Indecision is ONE of many triggers for anxiety. Indecision does not trigger the immune system by itself. Indecision creates anxiety. So does doubt. So does lack of knowledge. So does uncertainty. So do improper skills and habits. Anxiety is the signal that alerts and awakens the system, which then, without exception, stimulates physiological changes such as muscle tension, dystonic activity (usually the localized or "focal" variety), perspiration, heart palpitations, etc. Indecision brings anxiety which then leads to the hesitant action we all call "yips."
Indeed, TRUST is always involved as well. We all developed our individual prototypical way of trusting in the first year of life. You want to chnage that? - see a psychotherapist.
JUST DO IT is a virtual copout that may be understood by about 11% of the population..
Damon Lucas
Super Moderator
Hi Carey....Welcome to the thread!
No slight intended on my part for not posting your response. I thought about it, as indeed I thought whether to post Geoff's response. It is Brian's site, and the posters here will inevitably contribute in their own ways.
There are so many ways to attack the yips, and so far we have had some good discussions. I am interested to hear the boss's take, and his experiences, both personal and with his students.
I don't know if I had 'em myself, but it sure seemed like it. I attribute it to the SBST 'method' as advocated by a certain teacher. Because I didn't understand the set up and the shoulder's role, I tended to reverse roll my arms and wrists, and coupled with speed issues and imprecise aiming, it was no surprise!
This leads me to a 'sports psychologist' who is prominent on TGC who talks about self efficacy, which really comes back to your point, Carey, which is knowing what you are doing.
Damon
No slight intended on my part for not posting your response. I thought about it, as indeed I thought whether to post Geoff's response. It is Brian's site, and the posters here will inevitably contribute in their own ways.
There are so many ways to attack the yips, and so far we have had some good discussions. I am interested to hear the boss's take, and his experiences, both personal and with his students.
I don't know if I had 'em myself, but it sure seemed like it. I attribute it to the SBST 'method' as advocated by a certain teacher. Because I didn't understand the set up and the shoulder's role, I tended to reverse roll my arms and wrists, and coupled with speed issues and imprecise aiming, it was no surprise!
This leads me to a 'sports psychologist' who is prominent on TGC who talks about self efficacy, which really comes back to your point, Carey, which is knowing what you are doing.
Damon
Perfect Impact
New
The just do it is for once the decisions are made: and I don't mean what club, what direction,..... I mean the entire action to be accomplished: the club, the line, the way in which the club will be managed. etc. "Golf Is Mental Imagery" is the clue: we do what we think -- so if some detail has not be planned, we are in the swamp. Just do only what you have decided to do. If you cannot know how to DECIDE, you aren't ready for trying to compete or play. You are a learner in need of information. I cannot play a piano piece if I don't know I know the notes automatically. Guessing doesn't work.
I didn't think you were "slightling" anyone. I was just interested that the entire thread took a route that omits the one consistently present, universal instigator in the entire problem. Sadly, until we golfers understand the hiearchy contained therein, this cacaphony will continue till death do us part.
Even Mayo clininc studies finally admited that MAYBE anxiety played a part. They got so hooked on dystonia that it nearly has sunk their "yips" ship.
I suppose I just marvel at those who would rather rely on exceptions than rules and opinions rather than principles, and peripherals rather than core issues.
That's not necessarily wrong or bad, just unfinished. It's time to come to a finished solution. How long has this been a troublesome matter for golfers, after all?
Dear Carey,
Thanks so much for posting....we need it. Especially, so we can get out of the colloquialisms we have become so fond of.
I have been using your information for the past few months now and in the beginning it was very helpful to know that I didn't have to emulate a famous or favorite player's attitude to find out my own best way to learn. A lot of my anxiety disappeared when I found out what my true learning style is.
Many other things have been taking shape too. Will post later.
Spike
Thanks so much for posting....we need it. Especially, so we can get out of the colloquialisms we have become so fond of.
I have been using your information for the past few months now and in the beginning it was very helpful to know that I didn't have to emulate a famous or favorite player's attitude to find out my own best way to learn. A lot of my anxiety disappeared when I found out what my true learning style is.
Many other things have been taking shape too. Will post later.
Spike
Just a bit of a postscript: Some speak of finding a "cure" for "yips." That would be appropriate if "yips" were a disease. However, "yips" goes on the disability list, since it is not a disease. Cure is what is sought for disease. Rehabilitation is the process for dealing with disabilities.
Perfect impact, please this is going to sound wrong , it is not ment to offend but I think this is not a post you have expertise in. I don't know allot about clearkey golf , I may do some reading. Here is some info about me, no intension of braging and I hope not meant to be just my story. I have won somewhere around 35 amateur tournaments, semi-finalist in the 05 can-mid amateur , 3 straight player of the years, do I have the yips you bet ya!!. In 2003 I was on my clubs putting green trying to get ready for our provincial amateur the next day, I was hitting putts with a buddy, I told him my yips are here I will have to pull out, I physically could not get the putter off the ball. I tried everything for 4 hours, my back was killing me, then I hit a few putts with the putter elevated and bang I was good to go , Shot 9 under for 4 days, never yipped one and won by 3 in 40mph winds for all days. My yips come and go like the weather, when I don't have them I could putt in the masters, when they are here I can't putt to a tee in the ground. For me it is never a matter of making or missing. 12 years ago when they first came I would be ready to putt and before I wanted the putter to move in was starting, sounds strange but it was like I had no control over the putter head. There is no question the yips are mental , they also are physical, for me I could quit when they come but I love to compete to much so I just find new ways of tricking the mind and the body to allow me to free up. The yips may never go away fully but they can be beaten most of the time, my advice to those who have them bad is don't be afraid to try a new way of putting, I can now putt left handed if needed and I have putted left handed at two national championships, good luck TIM
Personally I don't think this is all that tough to figure out and in need of in depth study. Since I am a victim of this I think I have a good understanding of this. It's quite clear to me it's just fear of messing up. Confidence is probably the greatest thing a golfer or any athlete can have. IMO, I lack the confidence in making the proper shot to get the ball close to the hole on a chip. Even though I know this I STILL cannot get the job done.
Perfect Impact
New
Tim: The kind of yips I was referring to are not what you describe here, which are clearly of a different order. I am talking about those blips and bumps the club golfer goes through on a daily basis simply because his skill is NOT honed to where he knows what he is doing sufficiently to made decisions. The way the thread started I didn't pick up on this kind of experience, so what I said doesn't apply in such cases.
That said, I would love to explore with someone who suffers what you describe here with questions and feedback about what his thoughts are like in "critical" situations. I have a deep conviction about how making decisions and deciding that your best option is to accept your best judgment--there simply isn't anything better (line, how hard, have I taken in all the information available, do I have any unaddressed issues..?), then DECIDING to trust and letting it happen, is not just a surface remedy. Then I would see if DECIDING made a difference for the golfer (not faking it, but believing).
That said, I would love to explore with someone who suffers what you describe here with questions and feedback about what his thoughts are like in "critical" situations. I have a deep conviction about how making decisions and deciding that your best option is to accept your best judgment--there simply isn't anything better (line, how hard, have I taken in all the information available, do I have any unaddressed issues..?), then DECIDING to trust and letting it happen, is not just a surface remedy. Then I would see if DECIDING made a difference for the golfer (not faking it, but believing).
Dear Tim,
Heart felt! we are lucky that Dr. Carey is posting here. Ask him anything....he's great. I've had some awesome PM's with him!
Good luck my friend........love your attitude!!!
birdie_man
New
Yo Carey...good to have u here.
...
Carey...in your opinion....what percentage of people who have "the yips" can be, as you say, rehabilitated?
Can the management process pretty much be the same for everyone?
...
Carey...in your opinion....what percentage of people who have "the yips" can be, as you say, rehabilitated?
Can the management process pretty much be the same for everyone?
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