YIPS!

[puttmad]

.....

our minds and bodies do not work at the same speed, so one is vulnerable to mismatches in the timing and rhythm departments,

KG

It would seem I have solved that problem as well, with regard to putting anyway....

Thanks for the explanation.

I agree with you regarding the golf swing per se..."no thought" is probably a good thing once you have a proper swing ingrained.

And there lies the problem. Most people don't.

 

[keygolf]

KG

It would seem I have solved that problem as well, with regard to putting anyway....

Thanks for the explanation.

I agree with you regarding the golf swing per se..."no thought" is probably a good thing once you have a proper swing ingrained.

And there lies the problem. Most people don't.

I am pleased for you, though I could never try to teach people in a way that left them without any means of managing the unpredictable nature of a defult nonconscious, since I would regard that as teaching an exception to a rule, but I certainly will not argue with whatever you have found that works for you.

Cheers

 

[TYORKE1]

No offence to either keygolf or puttmad, using a forum to just sell your product is not what it's about. Both of you have danced around any solid advice for the original poster I will soon buy a book on clearkey's and puttmad I am sure your stuff is good but getting here from the uk would be too expensive, maybe your here I don't know . Too both we are pleased to have you here if you want to help or give assistance, don't dance around reponces give some solid advice , people will buy your stuff anyway, you both have a allot to offer , don't hold back ,TIM

 

[puttmad]

....

No offence to either keygolf or puttmad, using a forum to just sell your product is not what it's about. Both of you have danced around any solid advice for the original poster I will soon buy a book on clearkey's and puttmad I am sure your stuff is good but getting here from the uk would be too expensive, maybe your here I don't know . Too both we are pleased to have you here if you want to help or give assistance, don't dance around reponces give some solid advice , people will buy your stuff anyway, you both have a allot to offer , don't hold back ,TIM

TY,

The "banter" between Keygolf and myself is simply a differece in opinion about how much you need to do to cure the yips...

Carey has his opinion and I have mine.. His approach is from the inside out, mine is a more direct mechanical approach..

Neither is probably right or wrong...all I know is that what I do has worked for me for ten years, and after I finally decided to share it through my website, it has also worked for my students for the last 5 years...

Unfortunatel, my system is integrated and it would be hard for me to mention part of it without explaing the whole thing in detail, which, as you can no doubt understand, I am not willing to do here...

The only bit of broad advice I can give to the original poster is this:

When you are actually striking the ball, your focus should NOT be on anything else but the angle of the putter blade.
The speed of the putt should have been established during your practice strokes and once you have established the correct movement of the putter with regards to how fast it needs to move through the ball, you should address the ball immediately and strike the ball while only focussing on correct blade position at impact..

Bear in mind that true "muscle memory" only has intensive feedback for about 10 seconds, so you can't hang around once you feel your practice strokes are correct..get down and hit the ball..

Note that the above is not what I do or teach...but is an adjustment of what I feel will benefit someone using a modern putting stroke/technique..

 

[puttmad]

No offence to either keygolf or puttmad, using a forum to just sell your product is not what it's about.

With all due respect TY, if I had come here simply to sell my product I would have made my username "Impact Putting" or "droprightin" etc as other people seem to do (nudge nudge).........

 

[birdie_man]

For the record I asked Carey to post on this.

Dunno if it's a big deal....I just felt he would have a lot to offer in here.

I dunno what u guys are worried about everyone is gonna learn.

 

[TYORKE1]

Fair enough puttmad, I was a little hard, sometimes reponces get away with what the question was. I think it would be great if you posted more on what you believe, without knowing anything about your theory hard to make any conclusions, feel free to open a post and discuss your thoughts , I am interested, sorry birdie , I thought there should have been more meat and potatoe's in the reponces, TIM

 

[birdie_man]

Fair enough no need to apologize man. I mean....Brian has talked about ppl comin in here and advertizing.

And again I'll say I DID invite Carey to contribute.

I just thought he could add a good perspective to this discussion.

Hope it's cool with the boss.

 

[keygolf]

No offence to either keygolf or puttmad, using a forum to just sell your product is not what it's about. Both of you have danced around any solid advice for the original poster I will soon buy a book on clearkey's and puttmad I am sure your stuff is good but getting here from the uk would be too expensive, maybe your here I don't know . Too both we are pleased to have you here if you want to help or give assistance, don't dance around reponces give some solid advice , people will buy your stuff anyway, you both have a allot to offer , don't hold back ,TIM

Apparently you have a reason for your comments. May I ask what that is? The original poster was Damon and he asked for comments concerning a book on the yips. I didn't think he wanted recommendations on the paper, fonts and book covers, but about the central theme in the book. I was not aware he called for advice. The topic is labelled "Yips."

Secondly, I don't dance, since my feet hurt. If what I have said is "around" the subject, then someone may need to ask more pointed questions, rather than simply challeging principles that center on restricting that problem.

So, please, Tim, fill me in.

 

[TYORKE1]

Birdie, Cary is a great resourse, just holding back a little, hope he opens up some, I was just glacing at his site , he has some interesting info, TIM

 

[TYORKE1]

Sorry Cary I just read your post, what I got from his post was that he wanted more than jeneric answers, I could be wrong maybe he can answer. I always laugh when certain instructors talk about the yips like trying too hard or controling your nerves, it's like telling a slicer not to come over the top , they know that just not how to stop. A very good friend had the swing yips with the driver, these were unbelievable, this guy almost made the pga tour but for years could not get the driver airborne or he could litterally shank the driver, of course he had anxiety who wouldn't. I have not read enough to comment on your theory's but from what I gather is your making the brain think of anything other than what you are doing . I would like to read more of what you teach and of what impact putting teaches. I apologize for my comments too both , after I punched the post reply I had thought it is better to have you here in a small way than not at all and for the rest of the guys I would feel terrible if it was my fault you both left.I am hoping however you both open up some and give some more "clearkey" insight to your teaching. Tim

 

[birdie_man]

I have to think that both mechanics OR mental issues can be the root cause depending on the player.

You just need to determine what is what, no?

 

[keygolf]

I have to think that both mechanics OR mental issues can be the root cause depending on the player.

You just need to determine what is what, no?

And you have certainly pointed to a prominent part of the problem with any issue in golf. Not many players are able to distinguish between whether the matter starts with the head or with the hands. If you are hacking in your head it will affect what happens in your hands. If you are hacking with your hands, it will affect what goes on in your head. (That is known as psychosomatic and somatopsychic, in order).

So that leaves two choices. Fix your hands beyond doubt, so that any "mistake" must be from the mind. OR... fix your mind so that any "mistake" must be from your hands. Now, either way, you have an evaluation resource that deals with one thing rather than trying to figure out which one of two caused the problem - which is an almost insurmountable predicament. If you go to a doctor and he can't decide if you need an appendectomy or need a psychiatrist, my guess is you will flee the scene.

My urgency comes from wanting players to have the necessary information and processes to get everything they can to the lowest common denominators, so it is possible to build on principle rather than fiddling to find "it."

As Moe Norman said to me many times - "the least number of moving parts."

If this is a threadjack, I apologize, but it is pertinent to the "yips," as well as all other parts of the game.

 

[keygolf]

Sorry Cary I just read your post, what I got from his post was that he wanted more than jeneric answers, I could be wrong maybe he can answer. I always laugh when certain instructors talk about the yips like trying too hard or controling your nerves, it's like telling a slicer not to come over the top , they know that just not how to stop. A very good friend had the swing yips with the driver, these were unbelievable, this guy almost made the pga tour but for years could not get the driver airborne or he could litterally shank the driver, of course he had anxiety who wouldn't. I have not read enough to comment on your theory's but from what I gather is your making the brain think of anything other than what you are doing . I would like to read more of what you teach and of what impact putting teaches. I apologize for my comments too both , after I punched the post reply I had thought it is better to have you here in a small way than not at all and for the rest of the guys I would feel terrible if it was my fault you both left.I am hoping however you both open up some and give some more "clearkey" insight to your teaching. Tim

No problem, Tim. I do get a negative gut feeling sometimes, but I get over it quickly, since by style, I am a Driver. It's amazing what a night's sleep will do. I don't plan going anywhere unless Brian tells me to take a hike.

Let me know if I can help with your search.

 

[puttmad]

...

I have to think that both mechanics OR mental issues can be the root cause depending on the player.

You just need to determine what is what, no?

You are nearly there birdie..

Can I change you line to read:

"I have to think that wrong mechanics produce poor results leading to mental issues which can be the root cause..."

The reason for this change is that I think Yips are "learned" as a direct result of poor performance and negative memory of what has gone before.. It seems easier for the mind to remember negative issues than positive ones and the result of continous assault of "negatives" eventually wears the golfer's confidence down etc etc....

I have a good friend who is a professional Snooker player...

As a boy and teen he was awesome and was full of confidence and won everything in sight, so naturally he turned pro... At first he carried his confidence through to the pro ranks and did very well. Then he had a couple of near-miss losses in the World Championship 1/4 finals and also another big tournament....

From that time I witnessed him "learning to lose"...

He is now a shadow of his former snooker self and has fallen way down the rankings....

 

[keygolf]

You are nearly there birdie..

Can I change you line to read:

"I have to think that wrong mechanics produce poor results leading to mental issues which can be the root cause..."

The reason for this change is that I think Yips are "learned" as a direct result of poor performance and negative memory of what has gone before.. It seems easier for the mind to remember negative issues than positive ones and the result of continous assault of "negatives" eventually wears the golfer's confidence down etc etc....

I have a good friend who is a professional Snooker player...

As a boy and teen he was awesome and was full of confidence and won everything in sight, so naturally he turned pro... At first he carried his confidence through to the pro ranks and did very well. Then he had a couple of near-miss losses in the World Championship 1/4 finals and also another big tournament....

From that time I witnessed him "learning to lose"...

He is now a shadow of his former snooker self and has fallen way down the rankings....

It can work either way. Your change of birdie's line gets only half the deal. It goes both ways. The problem is understanding which is which for the player standing in front of you. If you make it out to be one way when it is really the other, you still have a problem to deal with.

 

[Spike]

Gave a tennis lesson to a lawyer/athlete (cowboy of the year) years ago. Couldn't get his first serve in. After about 30 minutes he was hitting 120 mph serves one right after the other. He couldn't believe his eyes!!

Two weeks later I saw him and asked how his new first serve is working out?

Oh, I went back to my old one. The guys in my group couldn't return it and I just didn't want to loose my friends.

Had a guy working on the range, having one of his best sessions. A friend of his showed up and started hitting balls next to him (unbeknown to my guy). He was hitting wonderfull shots, on purpose, looked up and noticed his friend. They exchanged greetings. My guy couldn't hit another shot to save his life! His friend said goodbye and within 3 balls he was back to hitting great shots again.

Moral of the story? Deja vu is real?

Another one:

This is how you quit flipping.
Oh, wow, thanks! Sends me an email and tells me how great he is playing now!

Moral of the stories? Two sides to a coin?

For me it would be the ability to teach/help in both cases.

And oh, yeah, Deja vu is real?

 

[keygolf]

Gave a tennis lesson to a lawyer/athlete (cowboy of the year) years ago. Couldn't get his first serve in. After about 30 minutes he was hitting 120 mph serves one right after the other. He couldn't believe his eyes!!

Two weeks later I saw him and asked how his new first serve is working out?

Oh, I went back to my old one. The guys in my group couldn't return it and I just didn't want to loose my friends.

Had a guy working on the range, having one of his best sessions. A friend of his showed up and started hitting balls next to him (unbeknown to my guy). He was hitting wonderfull shots, on purpose, looked up and noticed his friend. They exchanged greetings. My guy couldn't hit another shot to save his life! His friend said goodbye and within 3 balls he was back to hitting great shots again.

Moral of the story? Deja vu is real?

Another one:

This is how you quit flipping.
Oh, wow, thanks! Sends me an email and tells me how great he is playing now!

Moral of the stories? Two sides to a coin?

For me it would be the ability to teach/help in both cases.

And oh, yeah, Deja vu is real?

Great account there, Spike. That's the "style" influence. You had a Persuader on your hands. They work hard to NOT loose relationships, even if it means not beating, or showing up, your opponent. If that were a Driver, he'd drive them into the ground, or force his way to the net and kill with an overhead. A Craftsman would simply lay back and hit ground shots all day long until his opponent made a mistake. An Analyzer would pass you down the line when you tried to move to the net, and end the point, after two or three exchanges.

BTW, that same refererence also infects players in golf as a factor in the "yips" picture. But that's another kind of recognition.

(Got to keep this on thread subject)

 

[birdie_man]

You are nearly there birdie..

Can I change you line to read:

"I have to think that wrong mechanics produce poor results leading to mental issues which can be the root cause..."

Hey man....I have no reason to argue with that as a statement in itself.

But what about a guy like Hogan....who apparently was a GREAT putter (yes this is what I have read) in his prime years....then went for a crap....?

BTW- he ain't the only one I'm sure.

...

And not only that....but what about what happens to most ANY pro, or any person for that matter, when intense pressure is applied?

So the stroke eventually changes.....but why?

PRESSURE-> anxiety (yes I believe this is 2nd in line)-> physical effects of anxiety-> "bad thinking" or inability/lack of know-how to manage-> more anxiety and effects-> etc.-> uncertainty when it's go time-> crappy stroke-> sitting in a bar over a Jack Daniels...



(BTW I'm not sure if that little chain there is in the right order but I think it's pretty close....unless you're a young John Daly and the JD[aniels] is the first step instead of the last)

The way I see it in that little chain of events is that pressure is the root cause...(and often even if your stroke is 100% there....i.e. you could have just finished sinking 100 3 footers in a row on the PRACTICE green).....

....then the anxiety hits......and IMO....THEN you realize you don't know how to handle it.

To put it simply, the difference between the practice green and the 18th green is pressure/anxiety.

...

BTW, like I said initially I will never argue what you said in the quote above. I will just argue whether it is complete.

The reason for this change is that I think Yips are "learned" as a direct result of poor performance and negative memory of what has gone before.. It seems easier for the mind to remember negative issues than positive ones and the result of continous assault of "negatives" eventually wears the golfer's confidence down etc etc....

I have a good friend who is a professional Snooker player...

As a boy and teen he was awesome and was full of confidence and won everything in sight, so naturally he turned pro... At first he carried his confidence through to the pro ranks and did very well. Then he had a couple of near-miss losses in the World Championship 1/4 finals and also another big tournament....

From that time I witnessed him "learning to lose"...

He is now a shadow of his former snooker self and has fallen way down the rankings....

Very interesting.

I think that is one of the things that compounds the problem yes.

...

So what can we get from that?

His actual snooker SKILL prolly didn't just go away....

Something must've just gotten in the way of it when he needed it....IMO anyway....and I could be wrong.

Was he learning to lose or trying to overcome something?

How long would it take for him to forget the bad times if he figured out a good way to make them good again? (possible to turn things around that quickly/dramatically if you go about it the right way?)

 

[TYORKE1]

We are breaking the ice, here are some things to think about, can conditions cause the yips. I think mine really started when I first went to a national many years ago!!. I remember the first time I had played on 12-13 stimp metre greens. At the time our greens were 8 , 12-13 was a shock , I felt like I was afraid to hit the putt. I am very lucky so to speak as mine usually only last a short time and then I find ways to temporaily beat them. I must admit I think both of our new instructors are on to something, the less the body has to work to putt and the less we thnk our minds and body's can free up. Here is a lucky thing for me , I usually get mine in the middle of the week and rarely in tournaments, mind you I would have won a national in 05 if I didn't get the hits early, missed a 2 footer on 13 in the semi's and then miss the combacker that would have put me 3up with 5 to play, also it would have been 5 holes in a row won and the guy I was playing was mentally beat until I gave him life . I am making time to read Cary's stuff tonight , TIM