Trackman Newsletter 9

[Kevin Shields]

Trying to hold a flat left wrist is great for a hang back flipping beginner. Hopefully they get a better pivot and use the ground better and do not have to do that anymore. IOW, they get better at golf. The flat left wrist was simply an alignment to control the club face in Tgm speak. The club doesn't want to do that and any hindrance of the club acting like a club decreases accuracy and speed.

IMO, this why people can really struggle when they take Tgm or S&T to the wall. They end up with too much lean and too downward an angle of attack.

Trying to hold a flat left through the ball is good for absolutely no one. If it stays flat for some, fine. But trying to do it is never good. It's a free hinge, don't ever hold it. If you have to hold it or take a divot to hold it, you're doing something very wrong

 

[spktho]

As soon as I saw the "drive/hold" release developer was saying that release was responsible for the opening of the club face on a shot hit off the toe, I pretty much stopped paying attention to it.

 

[natep]

Harder to get negative alpha if you're trying to shove the hands forward to keep FLW.

 

[ekennedy]

Just imagine how long you can drive/hold your release on a Phantom Camera?

30...40 seconds at least.

Must be practically orgasmic.

 

[cwdlaw223]

As soon as I saw the "drive/hold" release developer was saying that release was responsible for the opening of the club face on a shot hit off the toe, I pretty much stopped paying attention to it.

It closes, opens and then closes! They reference 5-10 things that are driving and holding. No way to keep track, add some spinal stenosis and you really have some lateral bend of your brain.

 

[Lifter]

Greg, because I know I'll get an honest answer, I'll ask. What are you driving, and what are you holding in this release? And what don't you agree about rotation around the coupling point? Have you ever successfully done a drive hold?

I wish I knew the answer to that question. And more generally, I've had trouble trying to change my release style. It seems to involve doing a lot of subtle things. And I'm not a fan of that. I prefer to work on exaggerating big huge uncomfortable things.

 

[spktho]

I prefer to work on exaggerating big huge uncomfortable things.

If you really want to feel a big change, get your hands way more vertical and closer to your body on the downswing, then tumble like a mofo. Once you get this, work on increasing the alpha torque early in the downswing(still with vertical handpath) and tumble like two mofo's Oh, and get those hips open early so you have something to pull off of while you're tumblin' like a mofo. Oops, did I give away the hip decel?

Gotta admit, I don't quite get the negative alpha at or into impact yet, though.

 

[Lifter]

If you really want to feel a big change, get your hands way more vertical and closer to your body on the downswing, then tumble like a mofo. Once you get this, work on increasing the alpha torque early in the downswing(still with vertical handpath) and tumble like two mofo's Oh, and get those hips open early so you have something to pull off of while you're tumblin' like a mofo. Oops, did I give away the hip decel?

Gotta admit, I don't quite get the negative alpha at or into impact yet, though.

Fascinating stuff. Is there a place I can look that summarizes what exactly all those moves are and why a golfer should put them all together?

While I love the tumble concept generally, I still don't totally buy the "vertical hand path from the top" idea yet. Seems like I could end up with the right elbow stuck behind like Jim Furyk if I did that too much. In fact, a lot of guys pursuing the 1PS end up with that problem.

I like what Brian said about "concave" hand paths from the top 3 minutes into this video:

<iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/20641989" width="500" height="250" frameborder="0" webkitAllowFullScreen mozallowfullscreen allowFullScreen></iframe> <p><a href="http://vimeo.com/20641989">lowbackmodel</a> from <a href="http://vimeo.com/user1093431">Brian Manzella</a> on <a href="http://vimeo.com">Vimeo</a>.</p>

 

[Lifter]

Drive/Hold

Greg, because I know I'll get an honest answer, I'll ask. What are you driving, and what are you holding in this release?

Rumor has it that a drive/holder's body is "driving" and the hand position is "holding", in other words not flipping or rolling.....

 

[spktho]

That's pretty much my summary and interpretation along with my feels in trying to implement the information I've read here on club torques, tumble, hand path and hip turn.

I don't think an out handpath and tumble are compatible. In order to get the full benefits of the tumble, I think you need a more vertical handpath.

You wanted exaggerated, I gave you exaggerated. You may get the right elbow stuck with vertical handpath and tumble alone if you exaggerate it. That's why I put in to increase the alpha component and the early hip turn, which I have felt when coupled together doesn't allow the right elbow to get too far behind you. I guess it still could, but if you're afraid to get it stuck, then I don't think you will let it.

 

[Lifter]

Thanks, spktho, I'm definitely interested in learning more about that stuff. I still think it's possible to have a hand path that is too vertical from the top, though. Just look at Brian's video above.

 

[Dariusz J.]

Trying to hold a flat left through the ball is good for absolutely no one. If it stays flat for some, fine. But trying to do it is never good. It's a free hinge, don't ever hold it. If you have to hold it or take a divot to hold it, you're doing something very wrong

Not a word less, not a word more. How foolish one can be to treat an advice to try CONSCIOUSLY to fight physics unless there is no need for -- vide sometimes while performing some speciality shots -- as wise ? This is a result of subduing something much more important to some much less important because of wrongly formulated thesis that almost affected golf.
Even me, before starting my studies, was feeling bad about my slap-hinge release type but was wise enough not to try to implement handle dragging stupidity and did not ruin my game thanks to that. It's simply great science supports what Cotton explained over a half century before.

Cheers

 

[Dariusz J.]

One more thing -- as I can see in the net, some people are ignorant enough not to distinguish between devastating handle dragging anti-natural conscious procedure and the real state of the lead wrist in the strict impact zone.
Cotton, who probably was the biggest expert on wrists in the history of golf, said wisely that there are some who needs to apply more wrist hinging in the zone (famous hinge drill of Cotton school), as well as there are some that will benefit from limiting hinging in the zone -- however, never through conscious action but through improving some completely independent elements such as e.g. body turn or grip to name a few; some also advocate drills to strengthen forearms and wrists which I am not a fan of but cannot deny a lot of greats from earlier times had these two trained hard thanks to daily jobs they needed to do when they were caddies. But that's another pair of shoes than just mechanics.
That's all what should be said in the topic. It is not a rocket science and thinking does not hurt.

Cheers

 

[Frans@France]

Shhhh, the grown ups are talking now...

vs.

But am I the only one that thinks that because the kids were playing the grown ups had to start talking and explaining? I personally thank the kids for making the grown ups replying and providing more info.......

That's how kids learn....

 

[Erik_K]

Trying to swing like our perception of some other guy is the bane of amateur golfers, period.

Absolutely. Is the goal to play better golf, or to look good at the driving range? By all means, if you want Joe Schmo to walk up to you during your range session and give comments like,"Wow. That's just a gorgeous move - so smooth. I am not sure why the ball was shanked on the first swing, and then hooked 70 yards off course to the left, nearly hitting my car by the way, on the second swing. But, Jesus, that's a syrupy smooth swing. You see this month's GD swing sequence of Couples?"

 

[gmbtempe]

The left wrist by both force and anatomically should be allowed to bend through the ball; if it doesn't you are emparting some kind of negative torque on your wrist and this is a hinderence to both speed and what the club "wants to do." It's an option, but not a good one imo. I got much better at actual golf when i stopped caring about how flat my left was as long as i was creating the proper dynamic loft through the ball.

I just don't agree with this, and I dont believe that Dustin Johnson for example, or David Toms, swings that I am very partial too are not allowing their wrist not to bend through impact by imparting negative torque on the wrist. I believe both have excelent pivots and great body rotation and just rotate through the shot.

 

[Lifter]

Absolutely. Is the goal to play better golf, or to look good at the driving range? By all means, if you want Joe Schmo to walk up to you during your range session and give comments like,"Wow. That's just a gorgeous move - so smooth. I am not sure why the ball was shanked on the first swing, and then hooked 70 yards off course to the left, nearly hitting my car by the way, on the second swing. But, Jesus, that's a syrupy smooth swing. You see this month's GD swing sequence of Couples?"

Wait. Most people think Luke Donald and Steve Elkington are smooth, pretty and efficient while Bubba and Gainey only survive with their ugly techniques because they have a good sense of timing......

 

[gmbtempe]

Greg, because I know I'll get an honest answer, I'll ask. What are you driving, and what are you holding in this release? And what don't you agree about rotation around the coupling point? Have you ever successfully done a drive hold?

You are driving the arms and wrists with your pivot for the most part.

I did not come up with the name "drive-hold" but its become the lexicon recently for a certain type of wrist position during the impact interval, its a poor choice because "hold" is a verb.

IMO I actually rotation about the coupling point, unintentionally becaues my pivot stops (again unintentionally breaks, damn kintetic chain doesnt help me) and then things break down.

I can drive hold release but I have to kind of trick it and never was able to have enough pivot rotation to overcome some mechanical flaws created by the trick.

 

[Lifter]

One more thing -- as I can see in the net, some people are ignorant enough not to distinguish between devastating handle dragging anti-natural conscious procedure and the real state of the lead wrist in the strict impact zone.
Cotton, who probably was the biggest expert on wrists in the history of golf, said wisely that there are some who needs to apply more wrist hinging in the zone (famous hinge drill of Cotton school), as well as there are some that will benefit from limiting hinging in the zone -- however, never through conscious action but through improving some completely independent elements such as e.g. body turn or grip to name a few; some also advocate drills to strengthen forearms and wrists which I am not a fan of but cannot deny a lot of greats from earlier times had these two trained hard thanks to daily jobs they needed to do when they were caddies. But that's another pair of shoes than just mechanics.
That's all what should be said in the topic. It is not a rocket science and thinking does not hurt.

Cheers

Dariusz, who are some of the all-time greats who indisputably had big slap-hinge releases?

 

[gmbtempe]

Dariusz, who are some of the all-time greats who indisputably had big slap-hinge releases?

ah no you didnt open that box